Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ben & Jack Thanks for the advice, I’m in no hurry now that I have the beast fermenting at a steady rate. I added some heat yesterday (My wifes 60 W heating pad, she already gave up on ever getting it back and bought another, she knows me too well…) I don’t want to blow off all of that fruit so I’m playing with the heat to get a nice steady slow ferment. On the off chance there was a bit of Malic in Raspberrys I selected a Malic eating yeast, I’ll let that run it’s course and see where I end up acid wise, I’m glad to hear the are malic heavy. I heartily agree with you on the taste testing. If wine making by the numbers was all there was to it, it would be a science, not an art. ‘Unconcentrating’ a wine is easy, but getting an overcropped grape to taste just right is just not going to happen, so I’m comfortable now. It was the low pH that had me worried a bit on this one, but I figured if the yeast can work it out, don’t mess with what I have, let it do it’s thing. Tahnks for the help. Regards, Joe
Joe Try checking pH when the SG gets down around 1010. Should give you a fair indication where the yeast is trying to take it. Hope this helps.
Response:
Jack, Thanks for your response. It was interesting: Ben, some might argue that 12.7 g/l of acid does not make a balanced wine. However, I’ll yield to your taste perceptions. I know full well a chmically imbalanced wine can taste balanced, which is why I
Yes, TA can’t be considered in isolation. A wine with 12.7 g/l may well be too flabby in some wines (e.g. those with a very high sugar content). I, too, have been experimenting with raspberry (red). I started four 1-gallon batches on August 10th last with (1) 25% pure juice diluted, (2) 34% pure juice diluted, (3) 50% pure juice diluted, and (4) 65% pure juice diluted. The 50% pure juice diluted batch actually yielded
Great experimenting – let me know the outcome in June! reactions. One thought the stronger was "horrible" while the other judge scored it very well, but the first judge liked the blend tremendously while the other judge thought it was "a regrettable dilution." So, it may just be that "concentrated flavor" is not universally appreciated.
Interesting story. I don’t doubt that the degree of concentration of flavour is partly a personal preference, and even dependant on a person’s mood. I also believe that light flavoured wines definitely have their place (you wouldn’t want to have to drink full-flavoured wines with all food for example – they would simply drown out many light flavoured foods). Let me make it clear that I don’t believe concentrated wines are superior to lighter flavoured wines, or that they should be the only wines made. Concentration of flavour doesn’t make a great wine alone, it has to be accompanied by balance and complexity. It seems to me that many of what are considered the best grape wines in the world are those that combine these three attributes (plus more). What I find hard to believe in the non-grape wine world is how few wines there seem to be that have concentrated flavours (all you have to do is look at the average recipe figures to see that), or at least, how often you see light flavoured wines if not the former. I find it hard to believe that most non-grape winemakers prefer to make light flavoured wines most/all of the time. I feel we’ve come a fair way in this dilution discussion/debate. Thanks for your past posts (and hopefully future ones too!). Ben
Response:
Ben & Jack Thanks for the advice, I’m in no hurry now that I have the beast fermenting at a steady rate. I added some heat yesterday (My wifes 60 W heating pad, she already gave up on ever getting it back and bought another, she knows me too well…) I don’t want to blow off all of that fruit so I’m playing with the heat to get a nice steady slow ferment. On the off chance there was a bit of Malic in Raspberrys I selected a Malic eating yeast, I’ll let that run it’s course and see where I end up acid wise, I’m glad to hear the are malic heavy. I heartily agree with you on the taste testing. If wine making by the numbers was all there was to it, it would be a science, not an art. ‘Unconcentrating’ a wine is easy, but getting an overcropped grape to taste just right is just not going to happen, so I’m comfortable now. It was the low pH that had me worried a bit on this one, but I figured if the yeast can work it out, don’t mess with what I have, let it do it’s thing. Tahnks for the help. Regards, Joe
Response:
I added about 1/2 gallon of water and 8 pounds of honey to get the brix back up. Doing this got me from an acid of 13g/ liter down to about 10 g/l, and pulled the SG up to about 1.044, ph was 2.9. 10 grams of Lalvin 71 B yeast went in at that point; I have about 6 gallon working slowly now.
Joe, the acid is high but it’s raspberry and is loaded with malic. I think you WILL want it sweet, but dilution at this stage is a taste call. But, it you don’t dilute, you waste the honey because you’ll never taste the subtle nuances honey brings to the ferment. In other words, you might be hearding it toward a mead but may never taste it as such. As I said, it will be a call based strictly on taste. As an aside, if you will forgive me, another 100% juice report. My wife and I just returned from our favorite winery (Poteet Country Winery, in Poteet, Texas) where I sampled their new blackberry, introduced both sweet and dry. These are 100% blackberry, just as their starwberry wine is 100% strawberry. They also make a 100% pear that either excites or disappoints — that much pear simply imparts a woody flavor that many people find objectionable. But these are all serious, fruity wines with lots of body and, as Ben would say, "concentrated flavor." The strawberry and blackberry work well, but the pear does not — the herbaceousness of the fruit comes to the fore with that much purity and detracts from the otherwise delightful. Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/
Response:
Jack and others; Just to take a little twist on this thread, I got 5 gallons of red raspberry juice a few weeks back that was supposed to be sterile but well… wasn’t. When I got it home it was at 0 brix, 13g/l TA, ABV of around 5% and a pH of 2.7. Is is pure juice? Dunno…. After I fumed a bit at not checking it when I bought it, I decided to work at it as a raspberry mead. I added about 1/2 gallon of water and 8 pounds of honey to get the brix back up. Doing this got me from an acid of 13g/ liter down to about 10 g/l, and pulled the SG up to about 1.044, ph was 2.9. 10 grams of Lalvin 71 B yeast went in at that point; I have about 6 gallon working slowly now. My question is this: Do you think I should give it a month, then see if it tastes way too ‘concentrated’ (and blend it into more mead if so), or do you think I’m headed in the right direction? It’s fermenting slowly, I added some heat today, it has a medium dose of DAP and Fermaid also at this point. (Yes, I’m thinking of a little oak, I just love the stuff…) I’m a little concerned about the acid numbers, but assume this is something you make sweet anyway… I have very little experience with fruit wines and any and all suggestions would be appreciated. Regards Joe
Response:
Joe, Just to take a little twist on this thread, I got 5 gallons of red raspberry juice a few weeks back that was supposed to be sterile but well… wasn’t. When I got it home it was at 0 brix, 13g/l TA, ABV of around 5% and a pH of 2.7. Is is pure juice? Dunno….
The numbers sound like it, or at least pretty close to it. Though I suppose they could have diluted slightly and added a bit of sugar. Do you think I should give it a month, then see if it tastes way too ‘concentrated’ (and blend it into more mead if so), or do you think I’m headed in the right direction? It’s fermenting slowly, I added
IMO, this all sounds good. I’d definitely give it a month – you can always blend afterwards, but you can’t unblend. Though, of course, I’d say it *won’t be* "too concentrated" for you if you’re a fan of concentrated flavours in your wines 
point. (Yes, I’m thinking of a little oak, I just love the stuff…) I’m a little concerned about the acid numbers, but assume this is something you make sweet anyway…
It doesn’t have to be sweet. Unless you reduce that TA somehow (MLF, chemical deacidification, dilution, blending etc) though, it will probably need to have a reasonable level of residual sugar to be balanced. Ben
Response:
Jake, my math says the guy that made the bottle I have used 37-38 pounds per gallon, but that is for a pure juice wine. Very few people have enough blueberries to do that, and if I had them I’d make 6 gallons of blueberry port or 15 gallons of wine. For all I know, the pure blueberry juice wine could taste like cough syrup. I won’t know until I taste it. You have to go back and search Google to see what the fuss is about. Indeed, you might consider it a red herring because very, very few people have enough blueberries to do what these fellows did. Traditionally, one makes blueberry wine using about 2 pounds of fruit per gallon of wine and it tastes great. If you want a strong blueberry wine, use 4 pounds of berries. I don’t EVER intend to waste 38 pounds of blueberries on a single gallon of wine — I don’t care how good it is. For the record, hundreds of thousands of people make blueberry wine all over the world every year using 2-4 pounds per gallon, and I dare say their wine is probably delicious and they aren’t the least bit disappointed. Ben can talk about his "concentration of flavour" until the cows come home and it won’t change the fact that 2-4 pounds of blueberries makes a very good blueberry wine — dark, richly flavored, complex if allowed to age, medium- to heavy-bodied if made correctly, and a real pleasure to drink. Go to http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/recipe3.asp and look at the recipes. Then make some wine and don’t look back. If later you think it is weakly flavored, which you won’t if your berries are ripe when picked, then next year add an extra pound or two. Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/
Response:
Now I am getting worried. I was planning on making blueberry wine this summer. I live in northern Manitoba, meaning there are no farms for a hundreds of miles to the south, meaning I have to pay for low quality fruit in the grocery or pick wild blueberries. Here the wild blueberries are a bit scarce and are the size of peas; a fast picker can obtain about 2 to 3lbs of fruit per hour. My math says that you all guys are suggesting about 20-25lbs of blueberrys is needed for a gallon of wine. Is that correct? Is diluted blueberry must that much inferior in your opinion? If not, how much lbs of fruit per gallon for this fruit would you suggest? (I understand that this is all a matter of taste and personal preference) Jake Enns – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Vince & Jack, Thanks for the posts, it’s great to hear about other winemakers doing similar things to yourself. pressed 1700lbs of crushed and fermented blueberries (along with sugar) and ended up with about 45 gallons of blueberry wine. Both this and Jack’s NY friend are yielding about 200 ml/kg from the fruit – that’s a very sensible figure for blueberries I think. Are homewinemakers willing to pay $6.66 per bottle for fruit to make a superior wine? I believe this is the what the real discussion comes down to. I definatly plan to change my recipe. In the original thread "The "fruit winemaking culture" (&) dilution of fruit wines" where the big debate started, I did mention that I thought this would be one of the main reasons for dilution. I still suspect it is, but no-one in that thread actually addressed it, or agreed that it was one of the main issues (from memory). Personally, I’d rather make some batches of less wine at a higher price and with more concentrated flavours in them than make a lot of batches which were light in flavour. I like to see the whole spectrum, especially in my own wines. Ben
Response:
Vince & Jack, Thanks for the posts, it’s great to hear about other winemakers doing similar things to yourself. pressed 1700lbs of crushed and fermented blueberries (along with sugar) and ended up with about 45 gallons of blueberry wine.
Both this and Jack’s NY friend are yielding about 200 ml/kg from the fruit – that’s a very sensible figure for blueberries I think. Are homewinemakers willing to pay $6.66 per bottle for fruit to make a superior wine? I believe this is the what the real discussion comes down to. I definatly plan to change my recipe.
In the original thread "The "fruit winemaking culture" (&) dilution of fruit wines" where the big debate started, I did mention that I thought this would be one of the main reasons for dilution. I still suspect it is, but no-one in that thread actually addressed it, or agreed that it was one of the main issues (from memory). Personally, I’d rather make some batches of less wine at a higher price and with more concentrated flavours in them than make a lot of batches which were light in flavour. I like to see the whole spectrum, especially in my own wines. Ben
Response:
Vince, great story. I wish I had tasted it. Indeed, I plan to in a few weeks. Let me explain. Last July, while my wife and I were at the 100th anniversary celebration of the Pierce-Arrow automobile in Buffalo, NY, we met a winemaker in northwestern NY who gave us a 375-ml bottle of 100% blueberry wine fortified into a port. He told us he only made 3 gallons and bottled it in halves because it took nearly 120 pounds of berries to produce 3 gallons of juice. I thought he was exaggerating, but your farmer friend’s figures seem to echo his claim. I have been saving it to share with my wife’s uncle, and we will be seeing him soon. I do look forward to it. Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/
Response:
Ben, Glad your raspberry wine turned out well. I am on my third batch of 100% red raspberry juice and will never go back. Part of this discussion has always included fruits that did not contain enough juice or had high acids. Even Ben and myself have admitted that blueberry wine should contain some added water. Well, I never made a 100% blueberry wine for this reason. The other day a local farmer, who I buy blueberries from, stopped by with a bottle of wine. He told me the year before that he was going to try making a batch. He let me taste the wine and it blew me away. With a few minor adjustments the wine could clearly would have been the best blueberry wine I have ever tasted. He asked my opinion on stabilizing the wine and during our conversation I tried to find his recipe. Finally I asked him how much water he added to his must. He looked supprised when I suggested that he had added water. He told me he pressed 1700lbs of crushed and fermented blueberries (along with sugar) and ended up with about 45 gallons of blueberry wine. This wine had body, distinct blueberry flavoral characteristics, dark rich color and a balanced acidity. Remember this is a farmer, not a winemaker. The wine was clearly superior to my own. 1700lbs of blueberries = $1500.00 per 45 Gallons of wine This is a cost of $6.66 per bottle for the wine at discounted wholesale blueberry prices. Are homewinemakers willing to pay $6.66 per bottle for fruit to make a superior wine? I believe this is the what the real discussion comes down to. I definatly plan to change my recipe. Vince
Response:
Hi Ben, thanks for the post. 100% raspberry sounds wonderful. Don’t worry about the skeptics. Given time, even Clyde may come around and try some! Joanne
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I just thought it might be of interest to those who have stated in the past that a 100% raspberry juice fermentation would produce a wine too powerful in flavour, that I just completed fermenting a 100% non-diluted raspberry juice wine (all top ups with original 100% juice) and it was very drinkable. Certainly there was no overpowering flavour. Infact, it was well flavoured and light-medium bodied. Admittedly the acidity was high at ~12.7 g/l because I have not taken any steps to deacidify this batch (just wanted to see how it would turn out as such) but at SG 1.012 it was well balanced and refreshingly crisp. pH ~3.27 and 13% abv. It had a month of lees stirring and I think the style could be a suitable candidate for MLF. All the best to all fellow raspberry winemakers (and those who don’t make raspberry too of course out there – whether you use 100% juice or not, Ben
Response:
Ben, some might argue that 12.7 g/l of acid does not make a balanced wine. However, I’ll yield to your taste perceptions. I know full well a chmically imbalanced wine can taste balanced, which is why I generally go by taste and not measurements. Indeed, I only measure acid if I suspect a problem and can’t tell you the acidity of 90% of my wines. I, too, have been experimenting with raspberry (red). I started four 1-gallon batches on August 10th last with (1) 25% pure juice diluted, (2) 34% pure juice diluted, (3) 50% pure juice diluted, and (4) 65% pure juice diluted. The 50% pure juice diluted batch actually yielded one US gallon plus 360 ml and was secondaried in a British gallon jug until 1st racking. My lees have been extremely thin (due, I suspect, to coarse filtering of the juice at the processing plant) and compact, and very little ullage increase resulted from the rackings. The wines are all brilliantly clear and undergoing bulk aging. I have not tasted any of them and do not intend to do so until June, but will report back when I do. An anecdotal footnote which may or may not be pertinent to this ongoing discussion of dilution: I made a wine in 2000 from Western Barberries (Berberis haematocarpa), which share many of the flavor characteristics of lowbush cranberries. Normally, I use 4 pounds of berries per gallon of wine for this fruit, but because I only had one empty carboy available at the time, I used 11 pounds per gallon with thoughts of blending later with Niagara Grape Wine. The initial tasting revealed a powerful (you would say "concentrated") flavor which I proceeded to dilute through blending, but before I did so I bottled a gallon of it as is and layed it aside to age. Last September a friend (the winemaker at a commercial winery) dropped by and asked if the barberry wine was ready for tasting. I said I thought so and produced two 375-ml bottles — one of the blend and one of the unblended wine. We tasted each side by side and each of us preferred a different one. The following month I entered each in a county fair and neither placed. The two judges had the same, opposite reactions. One thought the stronger was "horrible" while the other judge scored it very well, but the first judge liked the blend tremendously while the other judge thought it was "a regrettable dilution." So, it may just be that "concentrated flavor" is not universally appreciated. Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/
Response:
Hi all, I just thought it might be of interest to those who have stated in the past that a 100% raspberry juice fermentation would produce a wine too powerful in flavour, that I just completed fermenting a 100% non-diluted raspberry juice wine (all top ups with original 100% juice) and it was very drinkable. Certainly there was no overpowering flavour. Infact, it was well flavoured and light-medium bodied. Admittedly the acidity was high at ~12.7 g/l because I have not taken any steps to deacidify this batch (just wanted to see how it would turn out as such) but at SG 1.012 it was well balanced and refreshingly crisp. pH ~3.27 and 13% abv. It had a month of lees stirring and I think the style could be a suitable candidate for MLF. All the best to all fellow raspberry winemakers (and those who don’t make raspberry too of course out there – whether you use 100% juice or not, Ben
If you like this post and would like to receive updates from this blog, please subscribe our feed.