Question:
I have some Washington State Merlot with some unfortunate sulphide smell (H2S). Copper Sulfate is recommended. (I have racked with little improvement). Problem: CuSO4 is posionous, and a legal limit of 0.5ppm exists. I have 16 oz of 10% CuSO4 and 2, 1ml pipettes. I have 5 gallons to treat. I want to get the level to 0.1PPM. Question: what is the conversion equation? How many ml of 10% CuSO4 to 5 gallons (i can dilute it if I need to)? http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
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Hi, Ok, I think I got it now. I really do appreciate the help, and yes, if I can help along the way I definitely will but I do feel a bit intimidated by all this knowledge.
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As I said previously I just assume most people, these days, opt for potassium because it avoids increasing the sodium loading in the diet.
Although presumably one gramme of Sodium Met contains considerably less sodium than 1 gramme of table salt. OK I’ve forgotten the formula for sodium met. but I’m sure the met has a greater atomic mass than Chlorine. Thus you would have to drink one heck of a lot of wine (more than you could hold, I’m sure) for the Na component to even get near that which you take in through food, even without the addition of salt! What’s more, since potassium weighs more than sodium, you get better value weight-for-weight with sodium met! Adrian — Adrian Shaw Sefydliad Y Gwyddorau Biolegol, Prifysgol Cymru, aber. Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, Cymru ac. http://pcjagg.dbs.aber.ac.uk/mynegai.html uk
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I have some Washington State Merlot with some unfortunate sulphide smell (H2S). Copper Sulfate is recommended. (I have racked with little improvement). Problem: CuSO4 is posionous, and a legal limit of 0.5ppm exists. I have 16 oz of 10% CuSO4 and 2, 1ml pipettes. I have 5 gallons to treat. I want to get the level to 0.1PPM. Question: what is the conversion equation? How many ml of 10% CuSO4 to 5 gallons (i can dilute it if I need to)? http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
Steve, Let me first suggest that you make a 1% solution of CuSO4 to make measurements easier and to avoid over dosing. ( For example, use 10ml of 10% and enough water to make a total of 100ml of solution) From this 1% stock, .15 ml per gallon will result in .1 ppm of Copper
additon. Now it’s probably obvious why a 1% solution is desirable. A .75 ml addition (dose required for .1 ppm of Copper in 5 gal of wine) can be difficult to measure accurately even with a graduated 1 ml pipette. Note that .5 ppm of Copper is the legal limit for commercial wine, so adding 1 ml of 1% solution to a 5 gal carboy would be well within safe limits. latron clyde
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Where do you buy CuSO4? Or do you make up a batch in the lab as you need it?
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Now where do I go from here. Is sodium metabisulphite actually potassium metabisulphite or is potassium metabisulphite actually sodium metabisulphite Stu
Anyone for Chemistry – or rather the Periodic Table. Sodium and Potassium are in the same group and hence display the same qualities, except that Potassium is more reactive than sodium (this does not necessarily mean that potassium metabisulphate is more reactive than the sodium counterpart). The two chemicals are essentially the same. Paul Morris Every morning I smile….get’s it over with
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Where do you buy CuSO4? Or do you make up a batch in the lab as you need it?
Two suppliers that handle small proportions are: Presque Isle Wine Cellars in PA:(they just switched websites and there’s not much infor here, but the phone number is and they’ll ship it on description. Ask for a catalog; they have lots of equipment and supplies for home winemakers. http://www.rinestock.com/leqwa/presque.html and the other is "The Wine Lab" in Sonoma: ask for their catalog; it’s chocked full of useful info. http://www.rinestock.com/leqwa/presque.html Note that Copper sulphate is very poisonous and needs to be handled carefully. latron clyde
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I obtained my copper sulfate at All World Scientific, www.wine.awscientific.com. Clyde is right. It is posionous, that is why the legal limit is 0.5 ppm. This is the first time I will have to use it (out of 3 seasons) and I have the small pipettes to measure carefully with. Note: I bought 10% solution because that is what a commercial winemakeing friend has, but he has 225L barrels to dose, not 5 gallon carboys. I think there are lesser concentrations you can buy, or you can buy the solids and make your own. Steve http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
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Stu I’m on the road now, sorry I did not get back to you, several others have answered your questions and said what I would have, thanks all. The amount of free SO2 required is dependent on the pH. The lower the pH, the less you need to protect the wine. I’m pretty sure Lum addresses this in his book. It’s great. Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe, So, is it ok to use either, but if you don’t want to add salt to your wine you should be using potassium?? All of this revolves around the Ph of your wine, right ?? If you shouldn’t use sodium in your wine, then why do all the shops sell sodium rather than potassium ?? I actually can’t even remember ever seeing potassium met. Stu Stu As Carl points out, they are different roads to the same place. Campden tablets are Sodium Metabisulfite as I understand it. I don’t use them but if I ran out of potassium metabisulfite and had Campden Tablets, I would use them. It’s the free SO2 that matters. Joe — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.
– Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.
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Could PM also be used in Meade to lower the chance of infection? Also, will it work once the Meade has started to ferment? Richard
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doorman Gee, I’m sorry if all the contributions have confused still further. We do seem to get carried away sometimes! Sorry. Lets have another go. The articles I find in this Ng suggest that you should not use sodium met in your must, but rather potassium met. OK, for most of us this mainly a prefernce thing. You definitely could use either, they would have the same effect on your wine in terms of antioxidant and anti microbial activity (assuming you adjust the calculations to account for the differences in amount of sulphur dioxide released by the two types) . As I said previously I just assume most people, these days, opt for potassium because it avoids increasing the sodium loading in the diet. The same article may suggest using Camden tablets at the rate of yadayadayada. When I go down to my local wine making supply store and buy Camden tablets the label on the merchandise say’s "Note: caution contains Sodium Met beware asthma suffers etc.etc." I don’t know why Camden tabs are made with sodium meta rather than potassium meta. It may be traditional. I could at a push try to find out if you think it is that important. Personally, I would not worry. As you say later, you have used them in your fruit wines for years without problem. There is no reason at all why you should not use them in grape wine to the same good effect. The note to asthma sufferers will be because the tabs release sulphur dioxide (SO2) gas when they dissolve. SO2 can be bad news for anyone with a respiratory condition. So where do I go from here? You have a choice you can use sodium meta on its own, potassium meta on its own or Camden tabs on their own. Or (and I really hate to do this) unless you are making the stuff to sell (in the European Community at any rate, I’m not sure about other parts of the world) you can actually use them together in any combination. A lot of people do do this. They drop a couple of tabs to bring things to roughly where they want to be and then make final adjustments using sodium or potassium meta. You know, I think the reason is mainly to do with economics. It is cheaper buying crystals than tabs and if you are doing things on biggish scale crystals are probably easier to dissolve than tabs. Is the label wrong? No Does potassium met have sodium in it? No, unless it is there in trace quantities as a contaminant. Are Camden tablets actually sodium met Yes or what?? Not applicable I realize that this is probably a non issue at best because of the small amounts involved, but to a newbie like me who stayed up all night worrying that I had put the wrong stuff in my wine and ruined the whole caboodle it’s not a small thing at all. Hey; asking never hurt and providing the advice you get is sound the answers might even let you get back to sleep. The thought of an insomniac winemaker, makes me shudder 
) From what you have said and heeding the advice you have received I think you should be able to sleep like a log for a while now (by this I do not mean you need to bunk down in the fireplace). I’ve always used Camden tablets in my fruit wines which I’ve made year after year with great success. As I said above if it works on your fruit wines it should on your grape wines. It is a fruit after all. I would also say that this admission takes you firmly out of the Newbie category and I hope you will share your knowledge. This is the first time that I’m making it from pure grapes and there’s a fair investment here which is the reason for my frustration. Yup! I do believe there are fair few of us who will share those sentiments and understand your feelings. Any help would be much appreciated As usual I don’t know if what I have said has helped. I hope so. I am sure we all wish you luck and hope you will keep us posted with how things turn out or come back with further questions as and when you need. Little Podge
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I have never really researched this but I just assumed the predilection for potassium over sodium was based on the health issue of trying to reduce the sodium intake in the diet in order to avoid the sodium pump mechanism (something to do with blood and heart disease) being over loaded.
If Campden tablets are sodium metabisulfite, and if a winemaker was using 15 (3 x 5) tablets in the making of a 23 L batch, this would amount to 6.6 g (15 x 0.44) sodium metabisulfite, or 1.6 g sodium, the amount of sodium found in 4 g of NaCl (common salt). 4 g of NaCl in 23 L would mean 26 mg per 150 ml glass of wine, or about 1/200 teaspoon.This is of no health consequence and nobody can taste it. By the way, how much milk should we drink? 16 ounces of cow milk contain 385 mg sodium, or as much as 3 bottles of a wine treated with sodium metabisulfite. Commercial wineries are prohibited from using sodium metabisulfite in their wine? Somebody somewhere was not gifted for mathematics. Gorak
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Doorman Gee, I’m sorry if all the contributions have confused still further. We do seem to get carried away sometimes! Sorry. Lets have another go.
The articles I find in this Ng suggest that you should not use sodium met in your must, but rather potassium met.
OK, for most of us this mainly a prefernce thing. You definitely could use either, they would have the same effect on your wine in terms of antioxidant and anti microbial activity (assuming you adjust the calculations to account for the differences in amount of sulphur dioxide released by the two types) . As I said previously I just assume most people, these days, opt for potassium because it avoids increasing the sodium loading in the diet. The same article may suggest using Camden tablets at the rate of yadayadayada. When I go down to my local wine making supply store and buy Camden tablets the label on the merchandise say’s "Note: caution contains Sodium Met beware asthma suffers etc.etc."
I don’t know why Camden tabs are made with sodium meta rather than potassium meta. It may be traditional. I could at a push try to find out if you think it is that important. Personally, I would not worry. As you say later, you have used them in your fruit wines for years without problem. There is no reason at all why you should not use them in grape wine to the same good effect. The note to asthma sufferers will be because the tabs release sulphur dioxide (SO2) gas when they dissolve. SO2 can be bad news for anyone with a respiratory condition. So where do I go from here?
You have a choice you can use sodium meta on its own, potassium meta on its own or Camden tabs on their own. Or (and I really hate to do this) unless you are making the stuff to sell (in the European Community at any rate, I’m not sure about other parts of the world) you can actually use them together in any combination. A lot of people do do this. They drop a couple of tabs to bring things to roughly where they want to be and then make final adjustments using sodium or potassium meta. You know, I think the reason is mainly to do with economics. It is cheaper buying crystals than tabs and if you are doing things on biggish scale crystals are probably easier to dissolve than tabs. Is the label wrong? No Does potassium met have sodium in it?
No, unless it is there in trace quantities as a contaminant. Are Camden tablets actually sodium met Yes or what?? Not applicable I realize that this is probably a non issue at best because of the small amounts involved, but to a newbie like me who stayed up all night worrying that I had put the wrong stuff in my wine and ruined the whole caboodle it’s not a small thing at all.
Hey; asking never hurt and providing the advice you get is sound the answers might even let you get back to sleep. The thought of an insomniac winemaker, makes me shudder ) From what you have said and heeding the advice you have received I think you should be able to sleep like a log for a while now (by this I do not mean you need to bunk down in the fireplace). I’ve always used Camden tablets in my fruit wines which I’ve made year after year with great success.
As I said above if it works on your fruit wines it should on your grape wines. It is a fruit after all. I would also say that this admission takes you firmly out of the Newbie category and I hope you will share your knowledge. This is the first time that I’m making it from pure grapes and there’s a fair investment here which is the reason for my frustration.
Yup! I do believe there are fair few of us who will share those sentiments and understand your feelings. Any help would be much appreciated
As usual I don’t know if what I have said has helped. I hope so. I am sure we all wish you luck and hope you will keep us posted with how things turn out or come back with further questions as and when you need. Little Podge
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I have never really researched this but I just assumed the predilection for potassium over sodium was based on the health issue of trying to reduce the sodium intake in the diet in order to avoid the sodium pump mechanism (something to do with blood and heart disease) being over loaded. Little Podge – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The article also recommends the use of potassium metabisulphite instead of sodium metabisulphite. I don’t know why … perhaps sodium adds more "salty" taste than does potassium? Phil L
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Little Podge, I was the one that started this whole thing because I was confused on one point. Probably more than one, but for now the question is this. The articles I find in this Ng suggest that you should not use sodium met in your must, but rather potassium met. The same article may suggest using Camden tablets at the rate of yadayadayada. When I go down to my local wine making supply store and buy Camden tablets the label on the merchandise say’s "Note: caution contains Sodium Met beware asthma suffers etc.etc." So where do I go from here? Is the label wrong? Does potassium met have sodium in it? Are Camden tablets actually sodium met or what?? I realize that this is probably a non issue at best because of the small amounts involved, but to a newbie like me who stayed up all night worrying that I had put the wrong stuff in my wine and ruined the whole caboodle it’s not a small thing at all. I’ve always used Camden tablets in my fruit wines which I’ve made year after year with great success. This is the first time that I’m making it from pure grapes and there’s a fair investment here which is the reason for my frustration. Any help would be much appreciated – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have never really researched this but I just assumed the predilection for potassium over sodium was based on the health issue of trying to reduce the sodium intake in the diet in order to avoid the sodium pump mechanism (something to do with blood and heart disease) being over loaded. Little Podge
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So, is it ok to use either, but if you don’t want to add salt to your wine you should be using potassium??
Stu, either will do the job, however, both are SALTS (as opposed to TABLE salt, which is sodium-chloride, NaCl). If you don’t want to add SODIUM to your wine, potassium metabisulfite is a readily available alternative. There are also other sources of SO2, which are often used commercially. All of this revolves around the Ph of your wine, right ??
I believe that the primary reason for using sulfites is to control the growth of bacteria and unwanted yeasts, rather than to adjust the Ph (relative acidity) of the wine. If you’re interested in the subject, Lum Eisenman has a very detailed and informative discussion of Ph and Sulfites in Chapter 6 of his book: http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt6.html. If you shouldn’t use sodium in your wine, then why do all the shops sell sodium rather than potassium ?? I actually can’t even remember ever seeing potassium met.
The amount of sodium introduced into the wine by the use of sodium-bisulfite is extremely negligible, even if legislators in California saw fit to ban it. (Remember, California bans stud poker, but allows draw poker, because its legislature determined that the former is gambling, but the latter is a game of skill!) Sodium bisulfite is considerably less expensive than potassium metabisulfite, and provides approximately the same amount of SO2 per measure. However, many (if not most) winemaking supply shops DO sell both. If you cannot find potassium metabisulfite locally, you can order it from http://www.grapeandgranary.com/.
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I’m totally confused on this whole issue of Sulphite. I’ve been reading through the posts, and a couple of articles I’ve downloaded from this newsgroup and something appears wrong to me. In some of the articles it says you should not use sodium metabisulphite in your wine but rather potassium metabisulphite. In the same article it says to use Campden tablets at the rate of etc. etc. My problem is that when I read the package that my Campden tablets are in it says that it contains sodium metabisulphite. Now where do I go from here. Is sodium metabisulphite actually potassium metabisulphite or is potassium metabisulphite actually sodium metabisulphite Stu
The Vancouver Amateur Winemaker’s Association has an article on "The Use of Sulphur Dioxide (SO2) in Winemaking" at http://www.bcwine.com/vawa/usingso2.htm which I’ve found helpful. According to this article campden tablets contain potassium metabisulphite. I’m surprised that your package says sodium meta. The article also recommends the use of potassium metabisulphite instead of sodium metabisulphite. I don’t know why … perhaps sodium adds more "salty" taste than does potassium? Phil L To reply, remove KILLJUNK from address.
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Joe, So, is it ok to use either, but if you don’t want to add salt to your wine you should be using potassium?? All of this revolves around the Ph of your wine, right ?? If you shouldn’t use sodium in your wine, then why do all the shops sell sodium rather than potassium ?? I actually can’t even remember ever seeing potassium met. Stu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stu As Carl points out, they are different roads to the same place. Campden tablets are Sodium Metabisulfite as I understand it. I don’t use them but if I ran out of potassium metabisulfite and had Campden Tablets, I would use them. It’s the free SO2 that matters. Joe — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.
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Stu As Carl points out, they are different roads to the same place. Campden tablets are Sodium Metabisulfite as I understand it. I don’t use them but if I ran out of potassium metabisulfite and had Campden Tablets, I would use them. It’s the free SO2 that matters. Joe — Posted via Talkway – http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything ™.
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The substance that is desired (as a sterilizing agent) is liquefied sulfur-dioxide (SO2). Sodium metabisulphite and potassium metabisulphite (which are not the same) are simply two common sulfites (salts of sulfurous acid) which are used (in solution) to provide the SO2. Although there may be arguments as to whether it is more desirable to use a sodium or potassium based salt, both appear to work equally well in their primary function. [At least that's my understanding, he said while ducking.]
Carl: Well said! Also; I like Joe’s comment that the question of sodium vs potassium metabisulfite is really a question of "…different roads to the same place". -Both potassium & sodium metabisulfite release a portion of their mass as free SO2 when they are combined with an acidic solution. -Pure Potassium metabisulfite releases 57% of its weight as free SO2. -Pure Sodium metabisulfite releases 67% of its weight as free SO2. -The amount of Pot meta needed to achieve a desired level of free SO2 is calculated as follows: grams needed = (Litres of must X desired ppm) / 570 or g = (L X ppm) / 570 -The amount of Sodium meta needed to achieve a desired level of free SO2 is calculated as follows: grams needed = (Litres of must X desired ppm) / 670 or g = (L X ppm) / 670 -Many folks prefer to use pot meta because they do not want to add sodium to their wines (even though the amount added would be, admittedly, _very_ small). [Along these same lines, some states prohibit the use of sodium metabisulfite by commercial wineries] -Many folks prefer to use sodium meta because it is more concentrated & less is required to produce the same amount of free SO2. -SO2 additions after fermentation should be based on the wine’s pH & the residual level of free SO2 in the wine. -Sulfur Dioxide provides the winemaker with 6 indispensable & unique benefits: 1. SO2 aids in the clarification of musts before fermentation & also assists in the release of the coloring agents from the skins of grapes. 2. SO2 is a powerful antioxidant. It hoards the free O2 in the wine & therefore protects the wine from immediate oxidation. 3. SO2 is a powerful anti-enzymatic agent. As such it destroys the enzymes responsible for oxidation. This protects the wine from future oxidation. 4. SO2 is a powerful antibacterial agent. Most spoilage bacteria are sensitive to both free & total SO2. The combination of : low pH, high alcohol concentration, low concentration of dissolved O2 & an aseptic level of free SO2 (based on pH) will basically make a wine immune to invasion by bacterial agents. 5. SO2 is a powerful inhibitor of wild yeasts. The introduction of free SO2 into a must before yeast inoculation ensures that the cultured yeast will have minimal competition from wild yeasts. 6. SO2 improves the "fraicheur" or "freshness" of the finished wine. By reacting with staling compounds such as acetaldehyde, proper levels of SO2 actually improve the taste of the wine & also help to retain its freshness and develop its bottle bouquet. As you can see, the judicious use of SO2 (whether it comes from potassium metabisulfite or sodium bisulfite) is a critical & powerful tool of the winemaker. Hope This Helps: -Ed — "Wine is sunlight, held together by water…" -Louis Pasteur
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