Winery Wiki

Question:

There are "food grade" garbage cans available. Jeff

Response:

  They are made from petroleum which contains many poisonous chemicals. Ray

What do you think "food grade" containers are made from? Food grade does not have recycled materials that may be found in other containers, but all the plastics are made from a petroleum based material. Ed http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Response:

Hello, I started winemaking earlier this year, myself (haven’t tried mead). Couldn’t find a dealer anywhere close to Baton Rouge, so I ordered a near identical package at similar price from Homebrew Adventures in Charlotte, NC.  That  setup seems to be pretty typical for starter packages and will be adequate to make wine from a 6-gal kit (I’ve done three kits so far), but if you intend to make 5-gal batches you’ll need 5-gal carboys. You’ll quickly identify some specific additional equipment needs/wants, especially when you venture beyond the pre-packaged kits into making fruit wines from recipes.  In my case, I’ve added: —  a couple of smaller primary fermenters (Rubbermaid wastebaskets, 2.5-gal and 13-qt); —  clamp-on carboy handle (gives a bit more security in handling that big wet slippery jug); —  carboy brush; —  floating thermometer; —  auto-siphon; —  a second 6-gal carboy, two 5-gal carboys, numerous smaller jugs; —  drilled and solid stoppers for all carboys and jugs; —  a bunch of airlocks; —  a better corker (the plastic one with the kit works, but not well); —  a couple of fruit bags; —  18" wooden spoons; —  glass measuring cup; —  plastic measuring spoons; —  5-lb capacity kitchen scale; and maybe a few other minor items. I subsequently found that there is a little homebrewing/winemaking shop in Baton Rouge, but his inventory is pretty limited. I bought my second 6-gal carboy from him, but my 5-gal carboys are glass water jugs available from a local water company for a deposit of $11. Good luck, Bart

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’m new to the wine-making community. I’m mostly interested in making Meads and making this Jalapeno Wine that I found a recipe for. I imagine I would be making 5 gallons at a time. There are no brewing stores in Eau Claire, WI. But I found a store online in Minneapolis that ships out brewing supplies. They are offering the following kit for $54.95 + $8.12 for postage. I was wondering if this sounds like a fair deal. Would this be a good kit for me to start making Meads and/or some wines? Is it the right size kit for making 5 gallons at a time? Would I need any additional equipment that this kit is lacking? Or are there better Beginner kits available? I found this kit at: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/wine/equip_kits.asp I guess I’m partial to this company since it’s only 90 miles from Eau Claire. Has anyone had any experience with them? Good or Bad? Thanks for any suggestions. (sorry if it’s not cool this violates some sort of "cross-posting" ethics. I figured it was on-topic to both groups.) Robert Starter Winemaking Equipment Kit Includes: 7.5 gallon plastic fermenter with lid, 6 gallon glass carboy, stoppers for each fermenter, Econolock, Bottle Brush, Wine Hydrometer, "Making Homemade Wine" book, 8 oz of One Step Cleaner, Plastic Corker, 25 Corks, Racking tube, 6 ft. of Siphon Tubing, Bottle Filler, and a Shut off

Response:

Just a comment.  I assume you mean a plastic garbage can.  Garbage cans are not food grade.  They are meant to put garbage in.  They are made from petroleum which contains many poisonous chemicals.  Then you are putting an alcoholic beverage in it for several days or weeks.  Alcohol is a great solvent for petroleum.  Any loose chemicals in the plastic are going to be dissolved out into the wine.  And you are going to drink that cocktail? Ray – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I too, am a beginner.  I grew my own jalapenos. ( I have so many this year, I decided to try my luck at winemaking).  I bought my first kit at a local winery ( www.piwine.com ) here in Northeastern PA.  It consists of: 5 gal. carboy hydrometer potassium metabisulphate pectin enzyme 1 package of pasteur champagne yeast siphoning hose yeast nutrient airlock all for $30.85 I used a clean new garbage can for the primary. My batch is doing really well, or so I believe.  Good luck to you Hello, I’m new to the wine-making community. I’m mostly interested in making Meads and making this Jalapeno Wine that I found a recipe for. I imagine I would be making 5 gallons at a time. There are no brewing stores in Eau Claire, WI. But I found a store online in Minneapolis that ships out brewing supplies. They are offering the following kit for $54.95 + $8.12 for postage. I was wondering if this sounds like a fair deal. Would this be a good kit for me to start making Meads and/or some wines? Is it the right size kit for making 5 gallons at a time? Would I need any additional equipment that this kit is lacking? Or are there better Beginner kits available? I found this kit at: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/wine/equip_kits.asp I guess I’m partial to this company since it’s only 90 miles from Eau Claire. Has anyone had any experience with them? Good or Bad? Thanks for any suggestions. (sorry if it’s not cool this violates some sort of "cross-posting" ethics. I figured it was on-topic to both groups.) Robert Starter Winemaking Equipment Kit Includes: 7.5 gallon plastic fermenter with lid, 6 gallon glass carboy, stoppers for each fermenter, Econolock, Bottle Brush, Wine Hydrometer, "Making Homemade Wine" book, 8 oz of One Step Cleaner, Plastic Corker, 25 Corks, Racking tube, 6 ft. of Siphon Tubing, Bottle Filler, and a Shut off

Response:

I too, am a beginner.  I grew my own jalapenos. ( I have so many this year, I decided to try my luck at winemaking).  I bought my first kit at a local winery ( www.piwine.com ) here in Northeastern PA.  It consists of: 5 gal. carboy hydrometer potassium metabisulphate pectin enzyme 1 package of pasteur champagne yeast siphoning hose yeast nutrient airlock all for $30.85 I used a clean new garbage can for the primary. My batch is doing really well, or so I believe.  Good luck to you

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’m new to the wine-making community. I’m mostly interested in making Meads and making this Jalapeno Wine that I found a recipe for. I imagine I would be making 5 gallons at a time. There are no brewing stores in Eau Claire, WI. But I found a store online in Minneapolis that ships out brewing supplies. They are offering the following kit for $54.95 + $8.12 for postage. I was wondering if this sounds like a fair deal. Would this be a good kit for me to start making Meads and/or some wines? Is it the right size kit for making 5 gallons at a time? Would I need any additional equipment that this kit is lacking? Or are there better Beginner kits available? I found this kit at: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/wine/equip_kits.asp I guess I’m partial to this company since it’s only 90 miles from Eau Claire. Has anyone had any experience with them? Good or Bad? Thanks for any suggestions. (sorry if it’s not cool this violates some sort of "cross-posting" ethics. I figured it was on-topic to both groups.) Robert Starter Winemaking Equipment Kit Includes: 7.5 gallon plastic fermenter with lid, 6 gallon glass carboy, stoppers for each fermenter, Econolock, Bottle Brush, Wine Hydrometer, "Making Homemade Wine" book, 8 oz of One Step Cleaner, Plastic Corker, 25 Corks, Racking tube, 6 ft. of Siphon Tubing, Bottle Filler, and a Shut off

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Robert — I live in suburban Minneapolis, and buy most of my supplies from this shop (Midwest Supplies).  I haven’t had to mail-order from them, but they always seem to be doing a lot of mail-order business when I stop in.  They have a pretty good assortment of equipment and supplies, and I’ve never had any problem with anything I’ve bought from them. The kit sounds like a reasonable deal for the money.  There are other things you’ll probably want if you keep making wine, but that should be enough to start with. As other folks have pointed out, you do want to keep the carboy topped up, so you will want to either (a) make 6-gallon batches to put in the 6-gallon carboy, or (b) tell them to send you a 5-gallon carboy instead, if that’s really what you want.  They sell both, so that shouldn’t be a big issue.  Pretty much all the commercially available kits are designed for 23 liters (6 gallons US), though, so if you are thinking you may do some of those, you’d want the 6-gallon size.  If you are looking at older books, etc. regarding wine making, you may see references to 5 gallon batch sizes that actually refer to 5 imperial (British) gallons, which is pretty close to 23 liters or 6 gallons US.  Most recipes for non-grape wines are for one gallon batches. Fond as I am of Jalapeno peppers, I have to think that 6 gallons, or even 5 gallons, of Jalapeno wine would be close to a lifetime supply. I’d recommend starting with something a little less exotic.  Based on your interest in mead or the Jalapeno wine, I’d recommend a white wine kit (one of the "28 day" variety) that makes 6 gallons.  They are nearly foolproof, and produce a pretty drinkable result in a couple of months.  And you could flavor some of the wine with Jalapenos (or whatever) before you bottle it. If you’re really determined to make the Jalapeno wine, I’d suggest trying a gallon to start with.  The recipe on Jack Keller’s site is for a 1 gallon batch.  If you decide it’s the greatest thing you ever drank, you can always make another, larger batch.  Even Jack, though, says he bottled most of his Jalapeno wine in splits and even smaller bottles — this stuff is for cooking or sipping, not for quaffing. You should be able to find 1 gallon glass jugs in the grocery store (I think apple juice is still sold in them), and Midwest Supplies sells them, too.

I understand you can make some nice beer with chiles. Haven’t had a chance to try it myself. I also plan to make a gallon of the jalepeno wine (along with a couple of others, like milk wine or mead) if I can find a few free carboys…

Response:

You should be able to find 1 gallon glass jugs in the grocery store (I think apple juice is still sold in them), and Midwest Supplies sells them, too.

About 1 gallon glass jugs,  Most apple juice has gone to plastic.  Here in TN shopping at Kroger you have to go to the health food section for cider/juice in glass jugs (think it was $6 a gallon makes a dandy cyser as well).  So don’t give up if all you see is plastic in the juice aisle.  They also have some real cute mini bottles that I use as gifts.   Another source for decorative glass gift bottles are drinks like SOBE I boil the resealable CAPS. John

Response:

Robert — I live in suburban Minneapolis, and buy most of my supplies from this shop (Midwest Supplies).  I haven’t had to mail-order from them, but they always seem to be doing a lot of mail-order business when I stop in.  They have a pretty good assortment of equipment and supplies, and I’ve never had any problem with anything I’ve bought from them. The kit sounds like a reasonable deal for the money.  There are other things you’ll probably want if you keep making wine, but that should be enough to start with. As other folks have pointed out, you do want to keep the carboy topped up, so you will want to either (a) make 6-gallon batches to put in the 6-gallon carboy, or (b) tell them to send you a 5-gallon carboy instead, if that’s really what you want.  They sell both, so that shouldn’t be a big issue.  Pretty much all the commercially available kits are designed for 23 liters (6 gallons US), though, so if you are thinking you may do some of those, you’d want the 6-gallon size.  If you are looking at older books, etc. regarding wine making, you may see references to 5 gallon batch sizes that actually refer to 5 imperial (British) gallons, which is pretty close to 23 liters or 6 gallons US.  Most recipes for non-grape wines are for one gallon batches. Fond as I am of Jalapeno peppers, I have to think that 6 gallons, or even 5 gallons, of Jalapeno wine would be close to a lifetime supply. I’d recommend starting with something a little less exotic.  Based on your interest in mead or the Jalapeno wine, I’d recommend a white wine kit (one of the "28 day" variety) that makes 6 gallons.  They are nearly foolproof, and produce a pretty drinkable result in a couple of months.  And you could flavor some of the wine with Jalapenos (or whatever) before you bottle it. If you’re really determined to make the Jalapeno wine, I’d suggest trying a gallon to start with.  The recipe on Jack Keller’s site is for a 1 gallon batch.  If you decide it’s the greatest thing you ever drank, you can always make another, larger batch.  Even Jack, though, says he bottled most of his Jalapeno wine in splits and even smaller bottles — this stuff is for cooking or sipping, not for quaffing. You should be able to find 1 gallon glass jugs in the grocery store (I think apple juice is still sold in them), and Midwest Supplies sells them, too. Best of luck, whatever you decide.   Doug Hudson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’m new to the wine-making community. I’m mostly interested in making Meads and making this Jalapeno Wine that I found a recipe for. I imagine I would be making 5 gallons at a time. There are no brewing stores in Eau Claire, WI. But I found a store online in Minneapolis that ships out brewing supplies. They are offering the following kit for $54.95 + $8.12 for postage. I was wondering if this sounds like a fair deal. Would this be a good kit for me to start making Meads and/or some wines? Is it the right size kit for making 5 gallons at a time? Would I need any additional equipment that this kit is lacking? Or are there better Beginner kits available? I found this kit at: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/wine/equip_kits.asp I guess I’m partial to this company since it’s only 90 miles from Eau Claire. Has anyone had any experience with them? Good or Bad? <…

Response:

Donald, I found that Kentwood Water still sells water in 5-gallon glass jugs under the "Mountain Valley" label (you can only purchase them full).  You have to pay about $11 deposit on the jug, the water costs about $1/gallon, so the total is about $17.  The threat of Isadore gave me an excuse to pick up another one earlier this week… Bart

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bart: Which water company in Baton Rouge still has the glass jugs? Thanks! Donald my 5-gal carboys are glass water jugs available from a local water company for a deposit of $11.

Response:

You will find this recipe (which I’ve got going currently) along with many others at the Winemaking Homepage (Jack Keller’s site) http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp Can you post the recipe for the Jalepeno Wine? Hello, I’m new to the wine-making community. I’m mostly interested in making Meads and making this Jalapeno Wine that I found a recipe for. I imagine I would be making 5 gallons at a time. There are no brewing stores

– www.frugalbrewer.com Spend money making wine and beer not on pricey frills for your gear

Response:

Bart: Which water company in Baton Rouge still has the glass jugs? Thanks! Donald – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – my 5-gal carboys are glass water jugs available from a local water company for a deposit of $11.

Response:

Can you post the recipe for the Jalepeno Wine?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’m new to the wine-making community. I’m mostly interested in making Meads and making this Jalapeno Wine that I found a recipe for. I imagine I would be making 5 gallons at a time. There are no brewing stores

Response:

Well, I looked over the kit.  I really think you would be better off getting the stuff in the kit separately & improving some items & eliminating some others.  Get the 7.9 gal fermenter with a metal bail handle instead of the 7.5 gal (7.5 is hell to move when full)  Get a 5 gal carboy if you want to make 5 gal batches  Eliminate the worthless corker that comes with the kit, a plastic plunger corker, do some research into at least a double wing corker, but they can still be tough to use well, a floor corker is worth the money in my opinion  Eliminate the cheap corks included, get good corks  Get the hydrometer, racking tube, tubing, shutoff & bottle filler. You should also get Pot. Metabisulfite, an acid test kit, a Fermtech Winethief is real nice for a start, I may have forgotten something that you shouldn’t live without, but it’s a good start. Jeff

Response:

Actually that kit is oriented toward making the great Canadian wine kits which are based on 6 US gallons ( 5 Imperial  gallons).  The trouble is that the carboy is 6 gallons and it really needs to be filled to 6 gallons. This is not  a real problem.  All you need to do is make an extra gallon! — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com Free shipping for orders greater than $35 and East of the Mighty Miss.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, I’m new to the wine-making community. I’m mostly interested in making Meads and making this Jalapeno Wine that I found a recipe for. I imagine I would be making 5 gallons at a time. There are no brewing stores in Eau Claire, WI. But I found a store online in Minneapolis that ships out brewing supplies. They are offering the following kit for $54.95 + $8.12 for postage. I was wondering if this sounds like a fair deal. Would this be a good kit for me to start making Meads and/or some wines? Is it the right size kit for making 5 gallons at a time? Would I need any additional equipment that this kit is lacking? Or are there better Beginner kits available? I found this kit at: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/wine/equip_kits.asp I guess I’m partial to this company since it’s only 90 miles from Eau Claire. Has anyone had any experience with them? Good or Bad? Thanks for any suggestions. (sorry if it’s not cool this violates some sort of "cross-posting" ethics. I figured it was on-topic to both groups.) Robert Starter Winemaking Equipment Kit Includes: 7.5 gallon plastic fermenter with lid, 6 gallon glass carboy, stoppers for each fermenter, Econolock, Bottle Brush, Wine Hydrometer, "Making Homemade Wine" book, 8 oz of One Step Cleaner, Plastic Corker, 25 Corks, Racking tube, 6 ft. of Siphon Tubing, Bottle Filler, and a Shut off

Response:

Hello, I’m new to the wine-making community. I’m mostly interested in making Meads and making this Jalapeno Wine that I found a recipe for. I imagine I would be making 5 gallons at a time. There are no brewing stores in Eau Claire, WI. But I found a store online in Minneapolis that ships out brewing supplies. They are offering the following kit for $54.95 + $8.12 for postage. I was wondering if this sounds like a fair deal. Would this be a good kit for me to start making Meads and/or some wines? Is it the right size kit for making 5 gallons at a time? Would I need any additional equipment that this kit is lacking? Or are there better Beginner kits available? I found this kit at: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/wine/equip_kits.asp I guess I’m partial to this company since it’s only 90 miles from Eau Claire. Has anyone had any experience with them? Good or Bad? Thanks for any suggestions. (sorry if it’s not cool this violates some sort of "cross-posting" ethics. I figured it was on-topic to both groups.) Robert Starter Winemaking Equipment Kit Includes: 7.5 gallon plastic fermenter with lid, 6 gallon glass carboy, stoppers for each fermenter, Econolock, Bottle Brush, Wine Hydrometer, "Making Homemade Wine" book, 8 oz of One Step Cleaner, Plastic Corker, 25 Corks, Racking tube, 6 ft. of Siphon Tubing, Bottle Filler, and a Shut off

Response:

Question:

Andie, Try a bench test of Sparkalloid and see if it clears it up in a few days. A caution with Sparkalloid though… it has very fine lees that are easily disturbed, and some feel it must be followed with filtering after to prevent sediment later. I wait at least a month after fining with Sparkalloid before I rack, but it often will work wonders.HTH John Dixon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have 3 gallons of dandelion wine in a carboy for about 6 months.  It will not clear.  We have tried bentonite to no avail.  There is a little lemon juice in it.  Is it possible it will never clear?  Is it possible that it’s too acid?  It tastes good so far.  Just a little cloudy. Andie Z

Response:

I bottled a cloudy Dandelion last night… I tried Bentonite and Kerstrol previously. I woke up today to a case of wine that cleared in the bottles overnight… Now I have to rebottle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We have 3 gallons of dandelion wine in a carboy for about 6 months.  It will not clear.  We have tried bentonite to no avail.  There is a little lemon juice in it.  Is it possible it will never clear?  Is it possible that it’s too acid?  It tastes good so far.  Just a little cloudy. Andie Z

Response:

We have 3 gallons of dandelion wine in a carboy for about 6 months.  It will not clear.  We have tried bentonite to no avail.  There is a little lemon juice in it.  Is it possible it will never clear?  Is it possible that it’s too acid?  It tastes good so far.  Just a little cloudy. Andie Z

Response:

I had the same problem after 6 months and it was very cloudy. I filtered it and now it’s like crystal! — Louise:o)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have 3 gallons of dandelion wine in a carboy for about 6 months.  It will not clear.  We have tried bentonite to no avail.  There is a little lemon juice in it.  Is it possible it will never clear?  Is it possible that it’s too acid?  It tastes good so far.  Just a little cloudy. Andie Z

Response:

Andie Z, My dandelion cleared nicely, but it didn’t taste like I thought it would. May I ask how much sugar you added per gallon?  On to your problem though, filtering might help.  But Jack Keller’s homemade wine site has some ideas on clearing – could be a pectin haze or a starch haze…check his site out. I have a watermelon-rhubarb wine which I’m having trouble with clearing. After ruling out pectin and starch haze, I’m going to sweeten and rack once or twice more before I try another clearing agent.  Hope this helps. Darlene

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have 3 gallons of dandelion wine in a carboy for about 6 months.  It will not clear.  We have tried bentonite to no avail.  There is a little lemon juice in it.  Is it possible it will never clear?  Is it possible that it’s too acid?  It tastes good so far.  Just a little cloudy. Andie Z

Response:

Question:

When booze is outlawed, only outlaws will have booze. They’ll have to pry this bottle of whiskey from my cold, dead fingers. Booze doesn’t kill people, people kill people. Where the hell is Chuck Heston when you really need him? Brian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seems the majority of self righteous southerners have a problem with seeing past the end of their elevated noses. All they manage to do with the"Wet – Dry" patchwork is insure an elevated level of drunk driving deaths.   And impose hardships on most of themselves by having to use the drive through window ("Baptist Window", is the slang) at the distant package store. But then again, many religious zealots practice self flagellation on a regular basis, even in these "modern" times! I’m a "career" southerner, so no smart a– remarks please.

Response:

How is it that states can make laws that circumvent federal laws such as the 200 gal limit? Brooks I know there have been several discussions of the legality of home winemaking, quantities allowed, restrictions, etc. Does any state currently completely forbid home winemaking? Bart

   http://www.newsfeed.com       The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers =—–

Response:

I did some research on this recently.  The Code of Federal Regulations, Title 27, Part 24, Subpart C, Sec. 24.75 addresses "Wine for personal or family use."  That section authorizes the tax-free production of up to 200 gallons per calendar year for a household in which two or more adults reside, or 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household. There is, however, an important limitation to the Federal authorization: "This exemption should not in any manner be construed as authorizing the production of wine in violation of applicable State or local law." IOW, states, counties, local municipalities can pass more restrictive laws — as has Alabama — with the Feds’ blessing. Bart – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How is it that states can make laws that circumvent federal laws such as the 200 gal limit? Brooks I know there have been several discussions of the legality of home winemaking, quantities allowed, restrictions, etc. Does any state currently completely forbid home winemaking? Bart    http://www.newsfeed.com       The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers

=—–

Response:

States can always be more restrictive. Federal highway speed limits vary from state to state for example. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How is it that states can make laws that circumvent federal laws such as the 200 gal limit? Brooks I know there have been several discussions of the legality of home winemaking, quantities allowed, restrictions, etc. Does any state currently completely forbid home winemaking? Bart    http://www.newsfeed.com       The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers =—–

Response:

States can always be more restrictive. Federal highway speed limits vary from state to state for example.

Almost always.  There was a little thing about voting rights (and other civil rights) in the ’50’s and ’60’s where the Feds frowned on the states being more restrictive.  :-) I think that what it comes down to is that the states have to follow Federal law.  In the case of home wine production, Federal law sets a U.S. maximu, and in addition to that, says that states can be more restrictive if they want. Dave

Response:

It’s two different offenses.  Something that is a crime by state law may not be by Federal law, and vice versa.

Sort of, I think.  The Feds set the maximum that anyone anywhere in the U.S. can make, but let the states set lower limits if they’re so linclined.  It’s not like the Feds said that everyone has to make 200 gals, and states which outlaw home wine production are therefore in violation of the Federal law. Dave

Response:

It’s two different offenses.  Something that is a crime by state law may not be by Federal law, and vice versa. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alabama.  Production of alcohol is only legal if you go through the certification process and pay the taxes.  Not much enforced for wine and beer, although they do occasionally bust a small still operation… That’s not only silly and unenforceable, but it might be unconstitutional. Doesn’t Federal law trump state law where there’s an overlap?  It seems to in the case of "medical marijuana".  California okayed it but the Feds bust those who grow or use it for medical purposes. Tom S

Response:

Seems the majority of self righteous southerners have a problem with seeing past the end of their elevated noses. All they manage to do with the"Wet – Dry" patchwork is insure an elevated level of drunk driving deaths.   And impose hardships on most of themselves by having to use the drive through window ("Baptist Window", is the slang) at the distant package store. But then again, many religious zealots practice self flagellation on a regular basis, even in these "modern" times! I’m a "career" southerner, so no smart a– remarks please.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What a joke in this day and age…. and they call afghanistan backwards! Alabama.  Production of alcohol is only legal if you go through the certification process and pay the taxes.  Not much enforced for wine and beer, although they do occasionally bust a small still operation… I’m not asking about any specific state, and I’m not motivated enough to search thru 49 states’ statutes (I know my own state’s); also, I’m aware of the fed regs. What I’m asking is if anyone knows of any state that totally outlaws home winemaking? Bart I’d suggest checking with the state in question. As for federal,  the "head of the household" is allowed to make 200 gal for family consumption.  You do need to obtain a federal license to be totally legal. I know there have been several discussions of the legality of home winemaking, quantities allowed, restrictions, etc. Does any state currently completely forbid home winemaking? Bart

Response:

The Code of Federal Regulations, Title 27, Part 24, Subpart C, Sec. 24.75 addresses "Wine for personal or family use."  That section authorizes the tax-free production of up to 200 gallons per calendar year for a household in which two or more adults reside, or 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one adult residing in the household.  There is, however, an important limitation to the Federal authorization:  "This exemption should not in any manner be construed as authorizing the production of wine in violation of applicable State or local law." IOW, states, counties, local municipalities can pass more restrictive laws — as has Alabama — with the Feds’ blessing. Bart

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alabama.  Production of alcohol is only legal if you go through the certification process and pay the taxes.  Not much enforced for wine and beer, although they do occasionally bust a small still operation… That’s not only silly and unenforceable, but it might be unconstitutional. Doesn’t Federal law trump state law where there’s an overlap?  It seems to in the case of "medical marijuana".  California okayed it but the Feds bust those who grow or use it for medical purposes. Tom S

Response:

Make that Tennessee and Jack Daniels.  Unfortunately I toured the place before the "powers that be" past and exception to the "dry" designation allowing the distillery to allow "tasting".  All I got was a chance to smell the "mash". Whoopee!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alabama.  Production of alcohol is only legal if you go through the certification process and pay the taxes.  Not much enforced for wine and beer, although they do occasionally bust a small still operation… That’s not only silly and unenforceable, but it might be unconstitutional. Doesn’t Federal law trump state law where there’s an overlap?  It seems to in the case of "medical marijuana".  California okayed it but the Feds bust those who grow or use it for medical purposes. Nope. You can still find dry counties in Kentucky and parts further south. I have heard but can not confirm that a certain large distillery in Kentucky is located in a dry county. Utah has some interesting liquor laws, too. I assume that the states and counties can do this because theire laws are more restrictive than the Federal laws. Like most laws of this type, it isn’t easy to enforce, and you’d hope that the state authorities would have more important things to worry about.

Response:

Well, I think I can make a case for Afghanistan being more "backwards" than Alabama, but I don’t think you really meant that seriously. However, I will agree that the degree of control the state exercises over alcohol is… well, the phrase anal retentive springs to mind. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What a joke in this day and age…. and they call afghanistan backwards! Alabama.  Production of alcohol is only legal if you go through the certification process and pay the taxes.  Not much enforced for wine and beer, although they do occasionally bust a small still operation… I’m not asking about any specific state, and I’m not motivated enough to search thru 49 states’ statutes (I know my own state’s); also, I’m aware of the fed regs. What I’m asking is if anyone knows of any state that totally outlaws home winemaking? Bart I’d suggest checking with the state in question. As for federal,  the "head of the household" is allowed to make 200 gal for family consumption.  You do need to obtain a federal license to be totally legal. I know there have been several discussions of the legality of home winemaking, quantities allowed, restrictions, etc. Does any state currently completely forbid home winemaking? Bart

Response:

Alabama.  Production of alcohol is only legal if you go through the certification process and pay the taxes.  Not much enforced for wine and beer, although they do occasionally bust a small still operation… That’s not only silly and unenforceable, but it might be unconstitutional. Doesn’t Federal law trump state law where there’s an overlap?  It seems to in the case of "medical marijuana".  California okayed it but the Feds bust those who grow or use it for medical purposes.

Nope. You can still find dry counties in Kentucky and parts further south. I have heard but can not confirm that a certain large distillery in Kentucky is located in a dry county. Utah has some interesting liquor laws, too. I assume that the states and counties can do this because theire laws are more restrictive than the Federal laws. Like most laws of this type, it isn’t easy to enforce, and you’d hope that the state authorities would have more important things to worry about.

Response:

STAY OUT OF ALABAMA If you’re a home winemaker, best stay out of Alabama, and especially DeKalb County (Fort Payne area) during a politically sensitive wet-dry election. Federal law, and that of most states, permits home winemaking of up to 200 gallons per household per year, and did even during Prohibition. But a 1940 Alabama law limits even possession of homemade wine to just five gallons.

Not to be overly blunt, but that sucks!!

Response:

I’m no lawyer, but had the impression that states could enact more restrictive laws than Federal, but not less restrictive(?) Bart

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alabama.  Production of alcohol is only legal if you go through the certification process and pay the taxes.  Not much enforced for wine and beer, although they do occasionally bust a small still operation… That’s not only silly and unenforceable, but it might be unconstitutional. Doesn’t Federal law trump state law where there’s an overlap?  It seems to in the case of "medical marijuana".  California okayed it but the Feds bust those who grow or use it for medical purposes. Tom S

Response:

Alabama.  Production of alcohol is only legal if you go through the certification process and pay the taxes.  Not much enforced for wine and beer, although they do occasionally bust a small still operation…

That’s not only silly and unenforceable, but it might be unconstitutional. Doesn’t Federal law trump state law where there’s an overlap?  It seems to in the case of "medical marijuana".  California okayed it but the Feds bust those who grow or use it for medical purposes. Tom S

Response:

I know there have been several discussions of the legality of home winemaking, quantities allowed, restrictions, etc. Does any state currently completely forbid home winemaking? Bart

Response:

I’d suggest checking with the state in question. As for federal,  the "head of the household" is allowed to make 200 gal for family consumption.  You do need to obtain a federal license to be totally legal.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know there have been several discussions of the legality of home winemaking, quantities allowed, restrictions, etc. Does any state currently completely forbid home winemaking? Bart

Response:

I’m not asking about any specific state, and I’m not motivated enough to search thru 49 states’ statutes (I know my own state’s); also, I’m aware of the fed regs. What I’m asking is if anyone knows of any state that totally outlaws home winemaking? Bart

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d suggest checking with the state in question. As for federal,  the "head of the household" is allowed to make 200 gal for family consumption.  You do need to obtain a federal license to be totally legal. I know there have been several discussions of the legality of home winemaking, quantities allowed, restrictions, etc. Does any state currently completely forbid home winemaking? Bart

Response:

Alabama.  Production of alcohol is only legal if you go through the certification process and pay the taxes.  Not much enforced for wine and beer, although they do occasionally bust a small still operation… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not asking about any specific state, and I’m not motivated enough to search thru 49 states’ statutes (I know my own state’s); also, I’m aware of the fed regs. What I’m asking is if anyone knows of any state that totally outlaws home winemaking? Bart I’d suggest checking with the state in question. As for federal,  the "head of the household" is allowed to make 200 gal for family consumption.  You do need to obtain a federal license to be totally legal. I know there have been several discussions of the legality of home winemaking, quantities allowed, restrictions, etc. Does any state currently completely forbid home winemaking? Bart

Response:

What a joke in this day and age…. and they call afghanistan backwards! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alabama.  Production of alcohol is only legal if you go through the certification process and pay the taxes.  Not much enforced for wine and beer, although they do occasionally bust a small still operation… I’m not asking about any specific state, and I’m not motivated enough to search thru 49 states’ statutes (I know my own state’s); also, I’m aware of the fed regs. What I’m asking is if anyone knows of any state that totally outlaws home winemaking? Bart I’d suggest checking with the state in question. As for federal,  the "head of the household" is allowed to make 200 gal for family consumption.  You do need to obtain a federal license to be totally legal. I know there have been several discussions of the legality of home winemaking, quantities allowed, restrictions, etc. Does any state currently completely forbid home winemaking? Bart

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, somehow I’ve lost this thread – and can’t find it even after searching the newgroup back to June, so I’ll start it up again. Today was a good milestone day for me. My last one, a couple weeks ago, was when my weight dropped below 300 and I hit 299. Within a couple days I quickly dropped to 297, and then I stuck. Amazingly I didn’t have my usual weight fluctuations up and down, even despite having my period in the middle of this timeframe, but for the next 10 days my weight just stayed right on 297 on the dot, not going up but not going down either – as if the scale had broken while stuck at that number. I know 10 days isn’t long for a plateau, but once I got below 300 I was eager to get WELL below so that even if I had a water gain my weight would still be below the magic number. 297 was okay, but not out of the danger zone since I have been know many times to gain as much as 7-8 lbs in one night. Anyway, today I got on the scale, and I was down to 294.5. Yeah! The barrier was broken. My measurements are starting to shrink also. My hips, which started out at such a huge 63 inches thay they weren’t even on the Eades chart for computing body fat for women (it stopped at 60 inches) are now down to 56.5 inches. Bust, waist and thigh are all down too. While dressing for church today I pulled a pair of size-20 slacks out of my closet that I haven’t been able to get past my knees for years, but I love them so much I couldn’t bear to get rid of them. I decided to try again to see how much further I had to go to be able to wear them. Lo and behold I got them on and they fit! I was so pleased that I ended up wearing them to church. When I got to church we had a touring youth group from Iowa singing at the service today. After church our choir director asked me if I had to rush back home right after church. I said no, and he grabbed me. Seemed he’s promised these 30 kids and their 7 adult chaperones a pancake breakfast after the service, and now he was looking for someone to help cook the pancakes. As it turned out I cooked ALL the pancakes while he sat with the folks from Iowa and played host (but he did help clean up and do the dishes) – so there I was, cooking hundreds of pancakes  - literally since there were 40 people and they each had 3-5 pancakes, churning them out so fast I could hardly think, and I didn’t eat a single one – not even a bite! Pancakes were one of my big favorites in my pre-lowcarb days, and yet I wasn’t even tempted oddly enough. Afterwards my son and I went up to the annual Renaissance Faire in Sterling Forest, NY. They had food and drink galore up there, all sorts of yummy stuff, but I managed to limit myself to a single "steak-on-a-stake" (seasoned grilled minute steak served on a skewer like a shish kebab) and a bottle of spring water. As they say, being thin feels better than any food tastes, and I ain’t even thin yet – got another whole person to lose at least – but it feels good to still be on my way. Debbie

Debbie:  Congratulations on what you’ve achieved.  I can just feel how thrilled you must have been when you tried on those pants getting ready for church!  Much continued success! Wishing everyone continued success in their transformations —  You’ve got to live, live, LIVE!  Life is a  banquet and most poor suckers are starving to  death!   Auntie Mame  Boston is a great sports town.  Too bad it  hasnt’t got any teams.–plagiarized from  someone else on the net

Response:

Well, somehow I’ve lost this thread – and can’t find it even after searching the newgroup back to June, so I’ll start it up again. Today was a good milestone day for me. My last one, a couple weeks ago, was when my weight dropped below 300 and I hit 299. Within a couple days I quickly dropped to 297, and then I stuck. Amazingly I didn’t have my usual weight fluctuations up and down, even despite having my period in the middle of this timeframe, but for the next 10 days my weight just stayed right on 297 on the dot, not going up but not going down either – as if the scale had broken while stuck at that number. I know 10 days isn’t long for a plateau, but once I got below 300 I was eager to get WELL below so that even if I had a water gain my weight would still be below the magic number. 297 was okay, but not out of the danger zone since I have been know many times to gain as much as 7-8 lbs in one night. Anyway, today I got on the scale, and I was down to 294.5. Yeah! The barrier was broken. My measurements are starting to shrink also. My hips, which started out at such a huge 63 inches thay they weren’t even on the Eades chart for computing body fat for women (it stopped at 60 inches) are now down to 56.5 inches. Bust, waist and thigh are all down too. While dressing for church today I pulled a pair of size-20 slacks out of my closet that I haven’t been able to get past my knees for years, but I love them so much I couldn’t bear to get rid of them. I decided to try again to see how much further I had to go to be able to wear them. Lo and behold I got them on and they fit! I was so pleased that I ended up wearing them to church. When I got to church we had a touring youth group from Iowa singing at the service today. After church our choir director asked me if I had to rush back home right after church. I said no, and he grabbed me. Seemed he’s promised these 30 kids and their 7 adult chaperones a pancake breakfast after the service, and now he was looking for someone to help cook the pancakes. As it turned out I cooked ALL the pancakes while he sat with the folks from Iowa and played host (but he did help clean up and do the dishes) – so there I was, cooking hundreds of pancakes  - literally since there were 40 people and they each had 3-5 pancakes, churning them out so fast I could hardly think, and I didn’t eat a single one – not even a bite! Pancakes were one of my big favorites in my pre-lowcarb days, and yet I wasn’t even tempted oddly enough. Afterwards my son and I went up to the annual Renaissance Faire in Sterling Forest, NY. They had food and drink galore up there, all sorts of yummy stuff, but I managed to limit myself to a single "steak-on-a-stake" (seasoned grilled minute steak served on a skewer like a shish kebab) and a bottle of spring water. As they say, being thin feels better than any food tastes, and I ain’t even thin yet – got another whole person to lose at least – but it feels good to still be on my way. Debbie

Response:

got another whole person to lose at least – but it feels good to still be on my way. Debbie

Debbie with your attitude you will soon be very lonely w/o that other person hanging on you. God Bless you and keep it up, you can do it!! Lancetlady

Response:

Debbie:  Congratulations on yourFantastic achievement.  I can only imagine how you must have  felt. when you broke through that plateau.  I wish you much  continued success! Your success give me hope that maybe I can do it to!    Good Luck  All The Way !!Today was a good milestone day for me. My last one, a couple weeks ago, was

Response:

Yes, early last month I started lifting weights again!  Looks like I’ll be needing heavier weights pretty soon, for some of the exercises, and I can do a few *actual push-ups* now, not just the wimpy ones from the knees.

Cool!  I was very proud of myself when I started being able to do real push-ups. Chris 262/130s/130s started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004

Response:

I must have missed the original so I’ll just piggyback here. WTG Berna!  This is wonderful progress. Beverly

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chris Braun schreef: I’m under 70 kg! Woohoo!! But I think I may need to update my goal; I want a nice flat belly, and I’m afraid that it’s going to take more than just 1.5 kg to get there. I’ll probably end up at around 65 kg (143 lb – I’m 173 cm/5′8"), I guess. Berna (101.5/69.6/~68 kg) Excellent progress, Berna! My approach to a weight goal was just to leave it blank.  I figured I’d know when I got to where I wanted to be, and that’s what happened. It turned out to be lower than I’d have guessed originally, but that’s okay. It was (obviously) attainable, and I’m very happy with where I am now. Thanks for the encouragement, everyone! I’m already very happy with where I am now, too. But I really hope I can get my belly a bit flatter, and thinner legs and a butt that’s just a bit smaller… They say the fat comes off in the reverse order it came on, so I should end up looking the same as when I was 25 or so, except for the older face, the grey hair and the sagging breasts.  And maybe looser skin, though the skin seems to be shrinking nicely along with the rest.  If it gets too loose, I can always grow more muscle to fill it up again. Yes, early last month I started lifting weights again!  Looks like I’ll be needing heavier weights pretty soon, for some of the exercises, and I can do a few *actual push-ups* now, not just the wimpy ones from the knees. Berna (101.5/70/~68 kg) — ( )_( ) Berna M. Bleeker-Slikker / http://www.volksliedjes.nl

Response:

Chris Braun schreef: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m under 70 kg! Woohoo!! But I think I may need to update my goal; I want a nice flat belly, and I’m afraid that it’s going to take more than just 1.5 kg to get there. I’ll probably end up at around 65 kg (143 lb – I’m 173 cm/5′8"), I guess. Berna (101.5/69.6/~68 kg) Excellent progress, Berna!   My approach to a weight goal was just to leave it blank.  I figured I’d know when I got to where I wanted to be, and that’s what happened. It turned out to be lower than I’d have guessed originally, but that’s okay. It was (obviously) attainable, and I’m very happy with where I am now.

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone! I’m already very happy with where I am now, too. But I really hope I can get my belly a bit flatter, and thinner legs and a butt that’s just a bit smaller… They say the fat comes off in the reverse order it came on, so I should end up looking the same as when I was 25 or so, except for the older face, the grey hair and the sagging breasts.  And maybe looser skin, though the skin seems to be shrinking nicely along with the rest.  If it gets too loose, I can always grow more muscle to fill it up again. Yes, early last month I started lifting weights again!  Looks like I’ll be needing heavier weights pretty soon, for some of the exercises, and I can do a few *actual push-ups* now, not just the wimpy ones from the knees. Berna (101.5/70/~68 kg) — ( )_( ) Berna M. Bleeker-Slikker / http://www.volksliedjes.nl

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m under 70 kg! Woohoo!! But I think I may need to update my goal; I want a nice flat belly, and I’m afraid that it’s going to take more than just 1.5 kg to get there. I’ll probably end up at around 65 kg (143 lb – I’m 173 cm/5′8"), I guess. Berna (101.5/69.6/~68 kg) Hey Berna, Congratulations! Flat bellies are hard to get. I agree, looks like there’s always something ‘inflating it’ from inside  ;-) I weigh 62.5 kg at 1.74m and my belly is not flat at all. I think it is round mostly because of excess skin *(I’ve lost 23 kg). So I don’t know whether you’d have a flat belly at 65 kg. But of course it’s worth a try – I know that I have weak skin anyway, it could be different for you.. It’s funny how, when you’re overweight, you think just dropping to ‘normal weight’ will get you the body you want, you know, flat tum, narrow waist, well shaped derriere, etc. But being at normal weight only means your weight is not endangering your health. You have to keep losing to get rid of those ‘problems’, unfortunately, you can’t chose where you’re going to lose fat from, in my case I have a skinny top & a fat bottom ;-(

It’;s roughly the same here. I do not have my "old" body back because my skin is flabbier, because I am older than the last time I was slim, and I don’t want to lose any more than I have. My face would become gaunt while my belly would not become perfect one way or another.

Response:

I’m under 70 kg! Woohoo!! But I think I may need to update my goal; I want a nice flat belly, and I’m afraid that it’s going to take more than just 1.5 kg to get there. I’ll probably end up at around 65 kg (143 lb – I’m 173 cm/5′8"), I guess. Berna (101.5/69.6/~68 kg) Hey Berna, Congratulations! Flat bellies are hard to get.

I agree, looks like there’s always something ‘inflating it’ from inside  ;-) I weigh 62.5 kg at 1.74m and my belly is not flat at all. I think it is round mostly because of excess skin *(I’ve lost 23 kg). So I don’t know whether you’d have a flat belly at 65 kg. But of course it’s worth a try – I know that I have weak skin anyway, it could be different for you..

It’s funny how, when you’re overweight, you think just dropping to ‘normal weight’ will get you the body you want, you know, flat tum, narrow waist, well shaped derriere, etc. But being at normal weight only means your weight is not endangering your health. You have to keep losing to get rid of those ‘problems’, unfortunately, you can’t chose where you’re going to lose fat from, in my case I have a skinny top & a fat bottom ;-(

Response:

I’m under 70 kg! Woohoo!! But I think I may need to update my goal; I want a nice flat belly, and I’m afraid that it’s going to take more than just 1.5 kg to get there. I’ll probably end up at around 65 kg (143 lb – I’m 173 cm/5′8"), I guess. Berna (101.5/69.6/~68 kg)

Excellent progress, Berna!   My approach to a weight goal was just to leave it blank.  I figured I’d know when I got to where I wanted to be, and that’s what happened. It turned out to be lower than I’d have guessed originally, but that’s okay. It was (obviously) attainable, and I’m very happy with where I am now. Chris 262/130s/130s started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004

Response:

I’m under 70 kg! Woohoo!! But I think I may need to update my goal; I want a nice flat belly, and I’m afraid that it’s going to take more than just 1.5 kg to get there. I’ll probably end up at around 65 kg (143 lb – I’m 173 cm/5′8"), I guess. Berna (101.5/69.6/~68 kg)

Hey Berna, Congratulations! Flat bellies are hard to get. I weigh 62.5 kg at 1.74m and my belly is not flat at all. I think it is round mostly because of excess skin *(I’ve lost 23 kg). So I don’t know whether you’d have a flat belly at 65 kg. But of course it’s worth a try – I know that I have weak skin anyway, it could be different for you..

Response:

I’m under 70 kg! Woohoo!! But I think I may need to update my goal; I want a nice flat belly, and I’m afraid that it’s going to take more than just 1.5 kg to get there. I’ll probably end up at around 65 kg (143 lb – I’m 173 cm/5′8"), I guess. Berna (101.5/69.6/~68 kg) — ( )_( ) Berna M. Bleeker-Slikker / http://www.volksliedjes.nl

Congrats on reaching this milestone! — the volleyballchick

Response:

I’m under 70 kg! Woohoo!! But I think I may need to update my goal; I want a nice flat belly, and I’m afraid that it’s going to take more than just 1.5 kg to get there. I’ll probably end up at around 65 kg (143 lb – I’m 173 cm/5′8"), I guess. Berna (101.5/69.6/~68 kg) — ( )_( ) Berna M. Bleeker-Slikker / http://www.volksliedjes.nl

Response:

Well done, Kristina, an eminently sensible way of improving your health. Keep up the good work!  :o) — Sandra 305 / 248 / 239 (mini goal) I have to exercise early in the morning before my brain figures out what I’m doing.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. Today I reached a milestone for the first time on this diet. Today I am 150 lbs. That is a loss of nine pounds since the start of my diet on May 26th. Twenty pounds to go, for my 5′3" height. I have been going very slowly, trying hard not to deprive myself of anything I really wanted. I’ve been trying to stick with whole foods (though I’m only partially successful there), watch my nutrition, and just generally keep things real. And it seems to be working. I’ve gone on maintenance about four times during this diet, each time for a whole week, while I traveled. That seems to have helped. I’m using a piece of software called Diet Power to track my food and exercise, and set my calorie goals each day. The only thing I wish I could do with it is set a calorie level myself and stick with it for a few weeks at a time. It adjusts daily, which is OK most of the time, but sometimes it overreacts. Over Thanksgiving week, I started the week thinking I would go into maintenance mode, but by Thanksgiving day I knew it would be a little bit of a gain. And it was–two pounds. But today, all of that is gone and another pound besides. I enjoyed the pumpkin pie, the homemade wine, and the mashed potatoes this year, and I enjoyed a restaurant dessert a couple of days after (though not as much as I would have enjoyed the dessert they didn’t give me because it was still frozen). I chose deliberately to go over my maintenance calorie level, and I enjoyed every minute of it. I just felt like today was something to celebrate a little, so I thought I’d post. Now it’s time for breakfast (oats, chopped almonds and sunflower seeds in milk with splenda and cinnamon). Kristina perpetual dieter

Response:

Slowly and steadily is the best way.  You are developing good eating habits and you will lose the rest and keep it off!  Well done! -Trillian 204/135/145 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. Today I reached a milestone for the first time on this diet. Today I am 150 lbs. That is a loss of nine pounds since the start of my diet on May 26th. Twenty pounds to go, for my 5′3" height. I have been going very slowly, trying hard not to deprive myself of anything I really wanted. I’ve been trying to stick with whole foods (though I’m only partially successful there), watch my nutrition, and just generally keep things real. And it seems to be working. I’ve gone on maintenance about four times during this diet, each time for a whole week, while I traveled. That seems to have helped. I’m using a piece of software called Diet Power to track my food and exercise, and set my calorie goals each day. The only thing I wish I could do with it is set a calorie level myself and stick with it for a few weeks at a time. It adjusts daily, which is OK most of the time, but sometimes it overreacts. Over Thanksgiving week, I started the week thinking I would go into maintenance mode, but by Thanksgiving day I knew it would be a little bit of a gain. And it was–two pounds. But today, all of that is gone and another pound besides. I enjoyed the pumpkin pie, the homemade wine, and the mashed potatoes this year, and I enjoyed a restaurant dessert a couple of days after (though not as much as I would have enjoyed the dessert they didn’t give me because it was still frozen). I chose deliberately to go over my maintenance calorie level, and I enjoyed every minute of it. I just felt like today was something to celebrate a little, so I thought I’d post. Now it’s time for breakfast (oats, chopped almonds and sunflower seeds in milk with splenda and cinnamon). Kristina perpetual dieter

Response:

Hi. Today I reached a milestone for the first time on this diet. Today I am 150 lbs. That is a loss of nine pounds since the start of my diet on May 26th. Twenty pounds to go, for my 5′3" height. I have been going very slowly, trying hard not to deprive myself of anything I really wanted. I’ve been trying to stick with whole foods (though I’m only partially successful there), watch my nutrition, and just generally keep things real. And it seems to be working. I’ve gone on maintenance about four times during this diet, each time for a whole week, while I traveled. That seems to have helped. I’m using a piece of software called Diet Power to track my food and exercise, and set my calorie goals each day. The only thing I wish I could do with it is set a calorie level myself and stick with it for a few weeks at a time. It adjusts daily, which is OK most of the time, but sometimes it overreacts. Over Thanksgiving week, I started the week thinking I would go into maintenance mode, but by Thanksgiving day I knew it would be a little bit of a gain. And it was–two pounds. But today, all of that is gone and another pound besides. I enjoyed the pumpkin pie, the homemade wine, and the mashed potatoes this year, and I enjoyed a restaurant dessert a couple of days after (though not as much as I would have enjoyed the dessert they didn’t give me because it was still frozen). I chose deliberately to go over my maintenance calorie level, and I enjoyed every minute of it. I just felt like today was something to celebrate a little, so I thought I’d post. Now it’s time for breakfast (oats, chopped almonds and sunflower seeds in milk with splenda and cinnamon). Kristina perpetual dieter

Response:

Good for you Kristina, you are making great progress and you are a real loser (fat). I would celebrate as well. Have fun. Roxan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. Today I reached a milestone for the first time on this diet. Today I am 150 lbs. That is a loss of nine pounds since the start of my diet on May 26th. Twenty pounds to go, for my 5′3" height. I have been going very slowly, trying hard not to deprive myself of anything I really wanted. I’ve been trying to stick with whole foods (though I’m only partially successful there), watch my nutrition, and just generally keep things real. And it seems to be working. I’ve gone on maintenance about four times during this diet, each time for a whole week, while I traveled. That seems to have helped. I’m using a piece of software called Diet Power to track my food and exercise, and set my calorie goals each day. The only thing I wish I could do with it is set a calorie level myself and stick with it for a few weeks at a time. It adjusts daily, which is OK most of the time, but sometimes it overreacts. Over Thanksgiving week, I started the week thinking I would go into maintenance mode, but by Thanksgiving day I knew it would be a little bit of a gain. And it was–two pounds. But today, all of that is gone and another pound besides. I enjoyed the pumpkin pie, the homemade wine, and the mashed potatoes this year, and I enjoyed a restaurant dessert a couple of days after (though not as much as I would have enjoyed the dessert they didn’t give me because it was still frozen). I chose deliberately to go over my maintenance calorie level, and I enjoyed every minute of it. I just felt like today was something to celebrate a little, so I thought I’d post. Now it’s time for breakfast (oats, chopped almonds and sunflower seeds in milk with splenda and cinnamon). Kristina perpetual dieter

Response:

Congratulations, bicker — that is wonderful. To me, weight loss without maintenance is pointless. I would be curious to hear some of the points you covered in your talk, as I am approaching my final pounds to lose. Again, congratulations! Mary M 325-164-148

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve reached a milestone that I’m rather proud of!  On Wednesday, the weight-management clinic I worked with to get to a healthy weight had me speak to a group of patients who had just finished their 13-week weight-loss curriculum.  I remember how important that talk was to me when I finished the curriculum back in Fall of 2001 — how it helped me understand the importance of protecting the weight-loss I had achieved by then (almost 50 of the over 100 pounds I’m keeping off now), and gave me a lot of understanding about the process of converting from someone "on a diet to lose weight" to someone who has adopted a healthy lifestyle for life.  It was such a charge having the opportunity to share what I’ve learned with these folks, and to have had a chance to possibly contribute to their lives the same way someone had contributed to mine. —

Question:

While on a business trip last month, I bought a copy of  "The Joy of Home Winemaking" by Terry Garey, and have to credit that book with getting me to actually start my first batch of homemade wine.  It’s a well-written, easy to read book about the subject that seems to really be easy for me to "connect" with.  However, there are a few errors in the book that bug me — for example, on page 25 it says that 4 liters is "somewhat less than a US gallon" (a US gallon is 3.785… liters).  Also, in the recipe for "Matched Pear" wine (pg 116-117), there’s no mention of when to add acid blend or yeast  (I figured out the proper sequence by reading other related recipes). Don’t get me wrong — I really enjoyed the book — but are there other errors that might slip up and bite me? Bart

Response:

In regards to "Joy of Home Winemaking" I also found this book to be really readable and has inspired me to start a few batches going.  The most recent was Blueberry-Honey and will be racked off to the secondary this afternoon. I found Joy of Home Winemaking to really be a Joy to read,  Garey’s style of writing is easy to read and has be bit of home spun humor sprinkled here and there in the narrative.  I also found the " 4 liters smaller than a gallon" error but missed the "Matched Pear" error, which is more of a omission than an error! My biggest complaint is that pictures in the book are really kind of hard to see what is being illustrated.  For example the level of the "must" on page 45.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While on a business trip last month, I bought a copy of  "The Joy of Home Winemaking" by Terry Garey, and have to credit that book with getting me to actually start my first batch of homemade wine.  It’s a well-written, easy to read book about the subject that seems to really be easy for me to "connect" with.  However, there are a few errors in the book that bug me — for example, on page 25 it says that 4 liters is "somewhat less than a US gallon" (a US gallon is 3.785… liters).  Also, in the recipe for "Matched Pear" wine (pg 116-117), there’s no mention of when to add acid blend or yeast  (I figured out the proper sequence by reading other related recipes). Don’t get me wrong — I really enjoyed the book — but are there other errors that might slip up and bite me? Bart

Response:

While on a business trip last month, I bought a copy of  "The Joy of Home Winemaking" by Terry Garey, and have to credit that book with getting me to actually start my first batch of homemade wine.  It’s a well-written, easy to read book about the subject that seems to really be easy for me to "connect" with.  However, there are a few errors in the book that bug me — for example, on page 25 it says that 4 liters is "somewhat less than a US gallon" (a US gallon is 3.785… liters).  Also, in the recipe for "Matched Pear" wine (pg 116-117), there’s no mention of when to add acid blend or yeast  (I figured out the proper sequence by reading other related recipes). Don’t get me wrong — I really enjoyed the book — but are there other errors that might slip up and bite me?

You caught more than I did. One thing to keep in mind about any wine recipe is that it may need to be adjusted depending on the quality and characteristics of the raw ingredients. A pound of the raspberries available to me may be a lot more acidic than a pound of the raspberries available in your area, for instance. You can of course get around this by measuring the pH and total acidity of the must, and correcting it as necessary. If you follow this practice, then you wouldn’t have had any problems following her pear recipe.

Response:

Bart, There are a lot of things in that book which could jump up and bite you. It takes a special breed of person to actually swallow beet or carrot wine. Tim

Response:

I agree…  I’ve got a batch of the pear wine started, and plan to try to watermelon/blueberry — but really have no interest in vegetable wines!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bart, There are a lot of things in that book which could jump up and bite you. It takes a special breed of person to actually swallow beet or carrot wine. Tim

Response:

Even with the odd errors and omissions we’ve noted, IMO it’s one of the best "first books" — I would suggest you read thru the whole book before starting anything, then read your selected recipe carefully and critically (and repeatedly). And post here any errors you find(!) Bart – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Based on the discussion in this newsgroup, I bought the book at the Party Source in Newport, KY this evening. Overall, it looks like a good book, and it sold for $2 less than retail! Don

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree…  I’ve got a batch of the pear wine started, and plan to try to watermelon/blueberry — but really have no interest in vegetable wines! Bart, There are a lot of things in that book which could jump up and bite you. It takes a special breed of person to actually swallow beet or carrot wine. Tim Based on the discussion in this newsgroup, I bought the book at the Party Source in Newport, KY this evening. Overall, it looks like a good book, and it sold for $2 less than retail! Don

Ironically, I found a copy of this book at a garage sale yesterday (Aug 24) for the princely sum of CAD$2. I too saw the litre/US gallon conversion error, but just assumed she’d confused a source reference to imperial gallons with US gallons. I’m finding the book quite readable, and it’s tempting me to try making something other than a kit wine. Al Preston

Response:

Question:

Dan, Here’s another url for the newsgroup archives. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=rec.crafts.winemaking

Response:

I recommend you start with a few wine kits first, preferably the best quality you can afford. They are designed to work … Nothing gives a good boost to your efforts than a few batches that have worked well and you like. Then go for recipes, by all means the ones you are interested. Unfortunately, for each question posted here there are often dozens of different answers. In my experience (10+ yrs) I find the less you worry about what *might* go wrong the better. The one rule however is to cleanse all the equipment thoroughly. Good ferments/brews! Klaus – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I have alll the euqipment to make homemade wine, however i have seen many different recipes and am not sure which to use. Which would u lot say is the method you would follow? Cheers Dan ps. I am interested in making orange wine and a banana wine if this helps

Response:

Hello All, I have to agree with Klaus in what he said. start with good quality kits and get the hang of making wine from them first. Also be a little patient too, and you will be pleased with the quality. David – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I have alll the euqipment to make homemade wine, however i have seen many different recipes and am not sure which to use. Which would u lot say is the method you would follow? Cheers Dan ps. I am interested in making orange wine and a banana wine if this helps

Response:

Hi, I have alll the euqipment to make homemade wine, however i have seen many different recipes and am not sure which to use. Which would u lot say is the method you would follow? Cheers Dan ps. I am interested in making orange wine and a banana wine if this helps

Response:

Hi Dan, These two websites will be invaluable to you while you’re getting started. I’ve noticed that both of these fellows make an appearance in this newsgroup from time to time.  They also do a great job answering questions when needed.  Welcome. http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I have alll the euqipment to make homemade wine, however i have seen many different recipes and am not sure which to use. Which would u lot say is the method you would follow? Cheers Dan ps. I am interested in making orange wine and a banana wine if this helps

Response:

Question:

can homemade wine be toxic?

If you make your wine out of toxic ingredients, it will probably be toxic.  I was once all set to make wine out of crepe myrtle flowers, having gathered about 2 gallons of the flowers (petals only).  At the last moment I decided to call my extension agent (Jerry Parsons, in San Antonio — a great guy) and he informed me that myrtle is a member of the nightshade family (that, by itself, doesn’t mean they are toxic, but was a warning to exercise further caution).  While I was booting up my computer to check with several sources I know of on the web, he called me back and said he had just spoken with a specialist in botanical toxins at the Texas Poison Control Center and that crepe myrtle flowers are highly toxic if ingested.  That was that! There is nothing toxic I am aware of in the ingredients you used.  All have been used to make wine for centuries. Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Response:

can homemade wine be toxic? I have about 25gallons bottles up that I made 2 years ago I a bit of a chicken to try it it was my first and last batch. so grapes, rasions & oranges.

Response:

AFAIK no dangerous naturally ocurring organic toxins can live in healthy wine.  If the wine doesn’t taste nasty, usually the only thing that will make you sick is the alcohol.  That being said, you could still poison yourself if you made your wine in say, lead fermenters. If you want to be somewhat scientific about it, test for SO2 using Titrets. (from your local winemaking shop) If the SO2 levels and pH are within acceptable levels, you can be pretty sure that it’s free of spoilage organisms. Generally speaking, if it tastes good, it’s good.  Take a taste, if it’s good, drink a glass and wait overnight.  If you wake up the next morning, you’re good to go. -C

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – can homemade wine be toxic? I have about 25gallons bottles up that I made 2 years ago I a bit of a chicken to try it it was my first and last batch. so with grapes, rasions & oranges.

Response:

Question:

After making wines for a year or so, I’ve become convinced that it’s not hard to make passable, even good wine.  If you follow all of the directions, things turn out pretty good.  But I’m stumped about what I will ever change if I expect to make superlative wines.  Is it the fruit that you start with?  I’ve often read in this newsgroup that good vine starts in the vineyard.  If so, the home winemaker will always be at a disadvantage. I would imagine that another area for improvement is in sophisticated blending that can only come with experience. What are your thoughts?  What makes extraordinary wine? Lee

Response:

Lee, I think you answered most of your own question already. It is impossible to make great wine out of fair grapes. The home winemaker in my opinion is at an advantage at times because they can take more time with a 5-20 gallon batch than the winery could with 5000 gallons. Naturally if your juice is of low quality then this is a problem. Blending wines in my limited experience is difficult because it is subjective. I blended a wine 50/50 once and was somewhat displeased with the results. This wine however proved to be a favorite among my friends…. So what I have learned is that make what you like, make what someone else likes, but remember not everyone likes the same thing and you are not going to please everyone. Good Luck. John Dixon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After making wines for a year or so, I’ve become convinced that it’s not hard to make passable, even good wine.  If you follow all of the directions, things turn out pretty good.  But I’m stumped about what I will ever change if I expect to make superlative wines.  Is it the fruit that you start with? I’ve often read in this newsgroup that good vine starts in the vineyard.  If so, the home winemaker will always be at a disadvantage. I would imagine that another area for improvement is in sophisticated blending that can only come with experience. What are your thoughts?  What makes extraordinary wine? Lee

Response:

Lee- It is absolutely correct that in order to make superlative wine, you MUST start with superlative grapes! No matter how skilled you are as a winemaker, you will never exceed your grape’s potential! The most you can aspire to, as a winemaker is to maximize your grape’s potential. The best source for quality grapes in the U.S. is Brehm Vineyards. They can provide you with exceptional California grapes such as Old Vine Zin from Sonoma’s Dry Creek, or Cabernet Sauv. from Rutherford vineyards that are a stones throw from the likes of Screaming Eagle, Opus I, Stag’s Leap and Harlan. If you want to make exceptional wine, be prepared to pay the market price for grapes from exceptional AVA’s. Once you have acquired grapes from Brehm, you can maximize their potential through sound winemaking principles (e.g. employing extended maceration, mlf, limiting or eliminating fining and filtration, balancing pH and Acidity, ensuring sufficient SO2, proper aging and cellaring, etc…) Yes, you can use blending to improve your wine. You should not blend to correct faults, however you can blend sound wines to correct imbalances. Blending is your best option to add complexity and dimension to your wines. There are a number of places to get info on blending, including this month’s winemaker issue, and my personal favorite, off the labels of Paul Draper’s plethora of ‘Ridge’ wines. Jody

Response:

Lee, Since winemaking is both a science and an art there is plenty of opportunity to continue to improve both aspects of the hobby. As one who has made wine for over 30 years and had the privilege of extensive international travel I have three suggestions, 1) never think you’ve become an expert and continue to experiment and benefit from your experience, 2) keep abreast of the latest thinking and developments (this newsgroup is one of many great resources), 3) reassess everything you do to avoid bad habits and look for better ways of doing thins and especially 4) continually become better at evaluating wine (seeing, smelling, feeling and tasting) without being a wine snob, otherwise you’ll be drinking alone.  I also think evaluating wine includes trying a great variety of wines from all over the world and understanding the people and cultures of winemaking regions especially europe, and how much winemaking and wine enjoyment is a part of thm. Cheers, Glen Duff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After making wines for a year or so, I’ve become convinced that it’s not hard to make passable, even good wine.  If you follow all of the directions, things turn out pretty good.  But I’m stumped about what I will ever change if I expect to make superlative wines.  Is it the fruit that you start with?  I’ve often read in this newsgroup that good vine starts in the vineyard.  If so, the home winemaker will always be at a disadvantage. I would imagine that another area for improvement is in sophisticated blending that can only come with experience. What are your thoughts?  What makes extraordinary wine? Lee

Response:

Have you blended these three grapes from Brehm before fermenting or after you completed the three different wines? Lee

Lee, I fermented them seperately then blended.  When I made the Petite Sirah, I field blended (blended before fermentation).  Both turned out very nice.  I think field blending is is like rolling a giant pair of dice with lots of your money on the betting table.  I am going to roll the dice agin this next vintage with Cab and Merlot, pray for me. About $3,000 worth of grapes will be at stake. cheers, Zinful

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Zinful- That Merritage blend sounds wonderful! I would be interested to know how your blend compares to the straight cabernet. I think I recall reading somewhere that it is difficult to improve California (Napa) Cabernet, through blending. What are your thoughts? I’ve done some bench trials from Peter’s 2001 grapes. So far, the blends are far superior to their individual components. The best two I’ve come up with is a 50/50 blend of syrah/Grenache; and a Pinot Noir with 9% Petite Sirah added. Blending certainly is the best way to take your winemaking to the next level! I can’t wait to play with the 2002 Rutherford Cab, and Windsor Zin! Jody

Jody, see message #11, I put it in the wrong place, ooops, sorry. cheers, Zinful

Response:

Hey Zinful- 60 gallons of Rutherford Cab, wow! You must be rich! I haven’t had the chance to work with these grapes yet. I am however currently working with the Petite Sirah from the same vineyard. Early tasting indicates a wine with incredible potential! After reading

Question:

Joe, I was searching the internet the other night for all the info I could find on pH, SO2, acids etc… and came across that piece of info. I don’t remember where it was that I saw it, but I’ll look back through my "history" and see if I can run across it again. If so, I’ll let you know. So, if I do sweeten a wine, and add sorbate, I should sulfite up to 50ppm regardless of the pH of the wine? Thanks for the help, Randy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Randy I’m not sure I follow that one. 0.5 to 0.8 is usually considered effective;  but maybe they are trying to bump it up with sweet wines for the following reason. Normally a sweet wine will also be higher in acids to be balanced; therefore the pH may be lower.  Now if you use Potassium Sorbate to prevent refermentation, most literature suggests you bump your free SO2 up to 50 PPM.  That could be 1.5 molecular on a low pH wine… I’m guessing here, not sure why.  Who did you get the info from, if I may ask? Regards Joe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most of the talk about molecular free SO2 on this group seems to agree that 0.8ppm is the desired level. Somewhere I read that the desired molecular free SO2 should be somewhere between 0.5ppm and 1.5ppm depending on the style/type of wine. I think they were saying the sweeter the wine, the higher the level, and lower for reds. Does anyone agree with this, or is 0.8ppm the mark to shoot for on all wines? If it is different for different styles/types of wine, does anyone have a table or chart showing desired levels for the different types such as: white grape red grape fruit wines dry semi sweet etc…. Thanks, Randy

Response:

Clyde, Do fruit wines have the same tannins that grapes have….and does the .5 and .8 numbers work the same for them also? Thanks for the info, Randy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Randy, I don’t know that sweetness has any influence on the effectiveness of SO2. All of the literature I have says that target for whites is 0.8 and reds is 0.5 I believe that the figure for reds is lower due to tannins. Given that our reds are less tannic than most, I bump up that target figure to around 0.6 or even 0.7 clyde Most of the talk about molecular free SO2 on this group seems to agree that 0.8ppm is the desired level. Somewhere I read that the desired molecular free SO2 should be somewhere between 0.5ppm and 1.5ppm depending on the style/type of wine.

Response:

Most of the talk about molecular free SO2 on this group seems to agree that 0.8ppm is the desired level. Somewhere I read that the desired molecular free SO2 should be somewhere between 0.5ppm and 1.5ppm depending on the style/type of wine.<snip

Randy- Most winemaking literature expresses desired S02 in terms of ppm free SO2  (e.g. 50ppm). These generalizations are based on .8ppm free molecular and assume a pH balanced at 3.5. One should always consider pH when making S02 additions as the amount of free molecular SO2 decreases as pH increases. John Iverson recommends .5 to .8 molecular as a function of pH. I get an accurate pH reading and shoot for somewhere right in the middle at .65. This equates to the following in terms of free SO2: pH 3.3   Free SO2 22ppm pH 3.4   Free SO2 28ppm pH 3.5   Free SO2 35ppm pH 3.6   Free SO2 42ppm pH 3.7   Free SO2 52ppm pH 3.8   Free SO2 65ppm Note that the required amount of Free SO2 to maintain .65 free molecular, begins to grow exponentially as you move up in pH. I personally do not exceed 50ppm Free SO2 regardless of the pH. If my finished wine has a pH of 3.7+, I limit my addition to 50ppm and plan on drinking the wine early… You can add more SO2 to increase your high pH wine’s aging potential, but you may find the odor objectionable. I don’t believe that the style of wine is relevant, except that the tannins in red do provide additional protection. The acidity of some styles will affect pH, and free SO2 should always be added as a function of pH. Regarding tables, check Appendix I in Jon Iverson’s book – ‘Home Winemaking Step by Step’ Jody

Response:

Thanks for the info Jody. I’ll be getting my new pH meter in a couple of days and I can start testing my 3 batches I have going now. later….. Randy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most of the talk about molecular free SO2 on this group seems to agree that 0.8ppm is the desired level. Somewhere I read that the desired molecular free SO2 should be somewhere between 0.5ppm and 1.5ppm depending on the style/type of wine.<snip Randy- Most winemaking literature expresses desired S02 in terms of ppm free SO2  (e.g. 50ppm). These generalizations are based on .8ppm free molecular and assume a pH balanced at 3.5. One should always consider pH when making S02 additions as the amount of free molecular SO2 decreases as pH increases. John Iverson recommends .5 to .8 molecular as a function of pH. I get an accurate pH reading and shoot for somewhere right in the middle at .65. This equates to the following in terms of free SO2: pH 3.3   Free SO2 22ppm pH 3.4   Free SO2 28ppm pH 3.5   Free SO2 35ppm pH 3.6   Free SO2 42ppm pH 3.7   Free SO2 52ppm pH 3.8   Free SO2 65ppm Note that the required amount of Free SO2 to maintain .65 free molecular, begins to grow exponentially as you move up in pH. I personally do not exceed 50ppm Free SO2 regardless of the pH. If my finished wine has a pH of 3.7+, I limit my addition to 50ppm and plan on drinking the wine early… You can add more SO2 to increase your high pH wine’s aging potential, but you may find the odor objectionable. I don’t believe that the style of wine is relevant, except that the tannins in red do provide additional protection. The acidity of some styles will affect pH, and free SO2 should always be added as a function of pH. Regarding tables, check Appendix I in Jon Iverson’s book – ‘Home Winemaking Step by Step’ Jody

Response:

I’m the wrong person to ask for this one Randy.  My experience and knowledge is virtually all grape.  Using the 0.8 molecular figure on all wines would not be hurtful. Anyone else wanna address this question? clyde – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Clyde, Do fruit wines have the same tannins that grapes have….and does the .5 and .8 numbers work the same for them also? Thanks for the info, Randy

Response:

Hi Randy, Most of the talk about molecular free SO2 on this group seems to agree that 0.8ppm is the desired level. Somewhere I read that the desired molecular

Most of the literature I’ve read suggests that levels of 0.5-2ppm molecular will provide good biological stability (and the higher level was more for storage purposes than drinking). However, a recent post (see thread "Decline in sulphur content") quoted that 0.825ppm molecular is required to suppress growth of Brettanomyces/Dekkera sp. It seems to me that there’s not been a lot of/enough research done on the area of biological protection through molecular SO2 so no-one’s quite sure, but I could just be ignorant free SO2 should be somewhere between 0.5ppm and 1.5ppm depending on the style/type of wine. I think they were saying the sweeter the wine, the higher the level, and lower for reds.

Style only influences it in that some styles of wine have more tannins (which increase protection), are more prone to oxygen, or have more residual sugar than others. As others on the ng have stated, tannins gives more protection (against oxidation). Some styles more prone to oxidation my be given higher levels to better protect them. Sweeter wines are, I believe, given higher doses because their they are more susceptible (due to the possible fermentation of their residual sugar by yeast or bacteria). wines? If it is different for different styles/types of wine, does anyone have a table or chart showing desired levels for the different types such

Personally, the standards I’ve personally seen most have been 0.6 for dry reds and 0.8 for dry whites and I’d go for at least 0.8 with sweet wines. For fruit wines I’d roughly follow those standards too, keeping in mind the affects of tannins etc (e.g. perhaps in a tannic white you could drop it a little, or in a blackberry/apple wine (prone to oxidation) increase it a little). Ben

Response:

Thanks for the input everyone! I think I’ll settle for 0.8ppm molecular free SO2 for my fruit wines and try not to go over 50ppm free SO2. later…. Randy

Response:

Randy That is what I would suggest, unless you are going to keep the wine in a refrigerator until used or have already put the wine through malolactic fermentation. The reason you want to bump up the SO2 is to prevent MLF in the bottle.  If that happens with sorbate in the wine you will end up with a ’spritzy’ wine that smells like geraniums. I really don’t make much sweet wine, but when I do I do bump the free SO2 to 50 PPM and add 6 grams of potassium sorbate to 5 gallon of wine; I have a Buon Vino Mini Jet that I run it through too, I use the tightest filter they have for that.  (I usually give all the sweet stuff away. I am not concerned about a little sediment myself, but people around here have had a lot of bad homemade wine; I want them to enjoy it from beginning to end.) Regards, Joe …So, if I do sweeten a wine, and add sorbate, I should sulfite up to 50ppm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – regardless of the pH of the wine?

Response:

Most of the talk about molecular free SO2 on this group seems to agree that 0.8ppm is the desired level. Somewhere I read that the desired molecular free SO2 should be somewhere between 0.5ppm and 1.5ppm depending on the style/type of wine. I think they were saying the sweeter the wine, the higher the level, and lower for reds. Does anyone agree with this, or is 0.8ppm the mark to shoot for on all wines? If it is different for different styles/types of wine, does anyone have a table or chart showing desired levels for the different types such as: white grape red grape fruit wines dry semi sweet etc…. Thanks, Randy

Response:

Hi Randy, I don’t know that sweetness has any influence on the effectiveness of SO2. All of the literature I have says that target for whites is 0.8 and reds is 0.5 I believe that the figure for reds is lower due to tannins. Given that our reds are less tannic than most, I bump up that target figure to around 0.6 or even 0.7 clyde – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most of the talk about molecular free SO2 on this group seems to agree that 0.8ppm is the desired level. Somewhere I read that the desired molecular free SO2 should be somewhere between 0.5ppm and 1.5ppm depending on the style/type of wine.

Response:

Randy I’m not sure I follow that one. 0.5 to 0.8 is usually considered effective;  but maybe they are trying to bump it up with sweet wines for the following reason. Normally a sweet wine will also be higher in acids to be balanced; therefore the pH may be lower.  Now if you use Potassium Sorbate to prevent refermentation, most literature suggests you bump your free SO2 up to 50 PPM.  That could be 1.5 molecular on a low pH wine… I’m guessing here, not sure why.  Who did you get the info from, if I may ask? Regards Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Most of the talk about molecular free SO2 on this group seems to agree that 0.8ppm is the desired level. Somewhere I read that the desired molecular free SO2 should be somewhere between 0.5ppm and 1.5ppm depending on the style/type of wine. I think they were saying the sweeter the wine, the higher the level, and lower for reds. Does anyone agree with this, or is 0.8ppm the mark to shoot for on all wines? If it is different for different styles/types of wine, does anyone have a table or chart showing desired levels for the different types such as: white grape red grape fruit wines dry semi sweet etc…. Thanks, Randy

Response:

Question:

  Thanks for recipes Paghat, have printed them out. Jelly is definitely the way to go as viburnum opulus has great big seeds. I have a lot of fruiting sorbus (mountain ash in England, rowan in Scotland) and crab apples here, have made a good jelly with them combined..so think I’ll probably try the VO mixed with them. The flowers-in-tempura recipe is very similar to an elderflower one which I’ve still not tried.   As for fertilisation…I have quite a number of  VO bushes and they form masses of flowers and fruit reliably every year. We have lots of insects here (out in the country, many miles from insecticide sprays) and istr both hoverflies and bees spending a lot of time round the flowers…will pay more attention this spring. Also, around flowering time, the VO leaves usually have a sudden hideous attack of aphids; these attract a lot of small birds (which are feeding young around the same time) which clear the aphid explosion in a week or so.Maybe the birds hopping about also helps shake pollen down onto lower flowers. The fruits are lovely, translucent shiny scarlet in big heavy bunches which hang well after leaf fall.   Janet.

Response:

 The interest in more than apples & oranges & carrots means specialty crops are becoming de rigour for many orcharders & farmers who are never assured of getting a good price for the "normative" crops but their little side-line of such food items as "Rowans" (ash), Saskatoons (Amelanchier sp, also called Serviceberries)

  I find amelanchier berries pretty horrible too . Back to viburnum….I have the sargentii one which you mentioned is also edible, though my bush is too young to have flowered yet; I live in hope then.   Cranberry-and-raspberry commercial drink is good too. Should you ever have the misfortune to get cystitis, drinking lots of cranberry juice helps.   Janet.

Response:

 Ocean Spray is just the trade name of the company who exports the cranberries I buy. The sort that don’t stink the kitchen out when you make them into sauce . (Cranberry sponge cake is good too). Ocean Spray is a farmer’s cooperative of cranberry growers, the headquarters is located in Middleboro/Lakeville, MA.  I live in Cranberry Country, and worked there for two years.  It is owned by the growers, managed by the growers, and is much more than just a trade name.

  Interesting to know..and good excuse to eat and drink even more cranberries.   Janet.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – V. opulus, a highbush cranberry   Is that a US nickname? I’ve not heard it before, and the fruits look and taste nothing like the cranberries we buy in the supermarket from the US/Canada. Viburnum trilobum is the North American Highbush Cranberry; Viburnum opulus is the European Highbush Cranberry. The cultivars don’t necessarily produce berries but most do. The natural European Highbush Cranberry takes all the worst-tasting traits of the North American variety (which is already awful tasting enough) & heightens them, so it’s rare anyone eats V. opulus cranberries, but that doesn’t stop them from being cranberries. Except that they are not true cranberries. The true cranberry (as in Ocean Spray) is Vaccinium macrocarpon. While the viburnums are *commonly* referred to as either American or European highbush cranberries, the berries they produce are not cranberries. They are not even in the same botanical family as cranberries. pam – gardengal And Vaccinium macrocarpon are not highbush cranberries. They may get made into Ocean Spray but they’ll never be highbush cranberries. Neener.

Well, this is perfectly true, although I’m not sure what bearing it has on anything. And highbush cranberries don’t grow in bogs either and are not harvested by flooding the bogs. In my experience, they are typically harvested by birds, who have the good sense to eat berries that are unpalatable or even toxic to humans. pam – gardengal

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – V. opulus, a highbush cranberry   Is that a US nickname? I’ve not heard it before, and the fruits look and taste nothing like the cranberries we buy in the supermarket from the US/Canada. Viburnum trilobum is the North American Highbush Cranberry; Viburnum opulus is the European Highbush Cranberry. The cultivars don’t necessarily produce berries but most do. The natural European Highbush Cranberry takes all the worst-tasting traits of the North American variety (which is already awful tasting enough) & heightens them, so it’s rare anyone eats V. opulus cranberries, but that doesn’t stop them from being cranberries. Except that they are not true cranberries. The true cranberry (as in Ocean Spray) is Vaccinium macrocarpon. While the viburnums are *commonly* referred to as either American or European highbush cranberries, the berries they produce are not cranberries. They are not even in the same botanical family as cranberries. pam – gardengal And Vaccinium macrocarpon are not highbush cranberries. They may get made into Ocean Spray but they’ll never be highbush cranberries. Neener.   Ocean Spray is just the trade name of the company who exports the cranberries I buy. The sort that don’t stink the kitchen out when you make them into sauce . (Cranberry sponge cake is good too).   Isn’t cranberry sauce a traditional accompaniment to your Thanksgiving turkey, and if so, did the tradition come from using viburnum berries, or vaccinium? We serve it with Christmas turkey but I’ve got a feeling we learnt that from you.

Cranberry juice, cranberry sauce, cranberry-flavored jelllo, dried cranberries (aka, craisins) are all made from vaccinium berries. To the best of my knowledge, viburnum berries are not a commercial crop, but the birds sure love them. Cranberry (vaccinium) sauce is the traditional accompaniment to turkey. Since the berries are native to North America, it’s a pretty good bet the tradition originated here. pam – gardengal

Response:

 Ocean Spray is just the trade name of the company who exports the cranberries I buy. The sort that don’t stink the kitchen out when you make them into sauce . (Cranberry sponge cake is good too). Ocean Spray is a farmer’s cooperative of cranberry growers, the headquarters is located in Middleboro/Lakeville, MA.  I live in Cranberry Country, and worked there for two years.  It is owned by the growers, managed by the growers, and is much more than just a trade name.

That’s very interesting. Does this cooperative go back to Wobbly "One World Union" days or is that underpinning for worker-owned cooperatives only a Northwest thing? If it’s worker-owned, then whenever I’m struggling to decide which fruit juices to select at the market, I’m selecting White Cranberry more often. That is tasty stuff, not sickly sweet like white grape juice, not putrid bitter like red cranberry. A couple months ago when I first tried White Cranberry, I tried to find out on line if it was a new crop cultivar, but apparently it’s really just green (unripe) cranberries harvested before they get the nasty taste. Reading the label, what they only tell ya in the small print, it also contains white grape juice, so I suppose pure white cranberry isn’t so great, but this mix definitely is good. And White Cranberry Peach truly rules. -paghat — "Flowers are commonly badly designed, inartistic in color, & ill-smelling." -Ambrose Bierce Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.angelfire.com/grrl/paghat/gardenhome.html#top

Response:

That’s very interesting. Does this cooperative go back to Wobbly "One World Union" days or is that underpinning for worker-owned cooperatives only a Northwest thing?

<G I don’t think it’s communist, it’s a bunch of bog owners.  It’s big industry around here, yet it’s still a very individual industry, if you know what I mean.  There are many, many bog owners, families who have grown cranberries for generations, all around this area. There’s agribusiness involved, too, especially out in Wisconsin and Washington state, where the large competitors have bogs.  Ocean Spray also owns grapefruit orchards down south.  It’s a huge, worldwide company, I was amazed at how big they actually are.  But it is, first and foremost, a cranberry growers’ cooperative. If it’s worker-owned, then whenever I’m struggling to decide which fruit juices to select at the market, I’m selecting White Cranberry more often. That is tasty stuff, not sickly sweet like white grape juice, not putrid bitter like red cranberry.

Not worker owned, grower owned.  And yes, the White Cranberry is good stuff. A couple months ago when I first tried White Cranberry, I tried to find out on line if it was a new crop cultivar, but apparently it’s really just green (unripe) cranberries harvested before they get the nasty taste.

Right.  When I was working there, we had taste test trials all the time for different combinations and formulas.  The White Cranberry juice was just coming out as I left, but I did get a taste of it. Reading the label, what they only tell ya in the small print, it also contains white grape juice, so I suppose pure white cranberry isn’t so great, but this mix definitely is good. And White Cranberry Peach truly rules.

It would be very puckery without the grape juice.   — Ann, Gardening in zone 6a Just south of Boston, MA

Response:

 Ocean Spray is just the trade name of the company who exports the cranberries I buy. The sort that don’t stink the kitchen out when you make them into sauce . (Cranberry sponge cake is good too).

Ocean Spray is a farmer’s cooperative of cranberry growers, the headquarters is located in Middleboro/Lakeville, MA.  I live in Cranberry Country, and worked there for two years.  It is owned by the growers, managed by the growers, and is much more than just a trade name. — Ann, Gardening in zone 6a Just south of Boston, MA

Response:

To the best of my knowledge, viburnum berries are not a commercial crop, but the birds sure love them.

Cranberry (vaccinium) sauce is the traditional accompaniment to turkey. Since the berries are native to North America, it’s a pretty good bet the tradition originated here. pam – gardengal

Highbush cranberries are easily obtained in commercially distributed jellies, jams, & pancake syrups, plus the powdered bark is found in the healthfood store & alternative medicine trade which is no small market. So though somewhat specialized, there’s a demand for commercially produced highbush cranberry, sold also as "wild raisin" or "small cranberry" when dried. The interest in more than apples & oranges & carrots means specialty crops are becoming de rigour for many orcharders & farmers who are never assured of getting a good price for the "normative" crops but their little side-line of such food items as "Rowans" (ash), Saskatoons (Amelanchier sp, also called Serviceberries) & Highbush Cranberry can save the farm. Commercial highbush cranberry fruit crops exist in Manitoba (statistics are in "Fruit Guide 2000:  Fruit Crop Production," 260 pages, which I haven’t seen except as a citation though; but a commentary on their commercial value to Manitoba is here:  http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/crops/fruit/bli01s00.html ). Small specialty farmers in Saskatachawan grow an array of specialty berries not relying on any one thing for the high-end market, typically three or more berry crops: highbush cranberry, Elderberry, Saskatoons, Gooseberries, & others far more obscure than Highbush Crans, such as Pinberry, buffalo berry, & buckthorn [see Galletta’s "Small Fruit Management" Prentice Hall, 1990; see also E.Small, ed., "Perspectives on new crops," ASHS Press, 1999). Also grown commercially in Nova Scotia & Newfoundland. Many of these crops are very old ones but giant agribusiness & the blanding out of produce as a set number of identical-looking items sold in big chain supermarkets meant that for several decades these crops were worthless & permitted to disappear, more so in the USA than in Canada & Europe. The organic food stores & returning demand for novelty from specialty produce sources (miniature vegies, unusual berries, asian veggies, central american fruits…) means that for at least a decade, this has been an expanding market & many once-traditional crops are regaining their commercial viability. And while many a small independent jam distributor may start out with wild-harvests, if they thrive or score even one really big contract, they soon need the commercial growers very badly. The University of Saskatoon has a Native Fruit Development Program & experimental gardens to improve the fruit-baring capacity of highbush crans, pinchberry, chokecherry, black currant & other small fruit crops that are proving the salvation of small prairie farmers, with demand far exceeding supply. There’s a little article about this here: http://www.ag.usask.ca/departments/plsc/nfdp/infoexchange/heritage.html Highbush Cranberry has been recommended for the Dakotas though I couldn’t find mention of a specific commercial grower with a net-hunt. There are also commercial viburnum fruit growers in Alaska & Michigan. From most of these commercial growers V. trilobum is choice because not too nasty tasting & heavy producer, but so is V. edule & V.  sargeentii are grown for fruit, & in Europe there are several orchard hybrids & cultivars, but mostly cultivars derived from V. trilobum, which has pretty much displaced any interest in V. opulum because its tartness is extreme even for people who like tart. It has been a food source in Scandinavia for a couple thousand years so it’s use by Europeans far predates vaccinium macrocarpum. In Russia & Sweden it is a very old traditional crop, & both countries have produced better fruiting varieties to meet the demand for the fruits & for the natural remedies derived from highbush cranberries of several species. An important erimental garden developing new scandninavian orchard varieties (from Russian stocks) is at the Institutionen f