Question:
So far I have read three detailed descriptions about how one makes wine, and all three insist that after racking from my primary fermenter into my secondary I should fill the carboy as full as possible to minimize the risk of oxidation. Now as a brewer I have never heard this advice, and have never even thought this could be a problem. I assumed that the blanket of CO2 produced by the yeast protected the liquid from oxidation (given that an airlock is in place to prevent a breeze from displacing the CO2).
The principle is sound regarding oxygen, which is why we add an airlock. Once we do that usually any further CO2 produced protects the wine but we’re pretty paranoid about it; perhaps since historically too many wines have turned to vinegar. Also, headspace allows for more area in which fruit flies carries of acetobacter bacteria, which will produce vinegar, can fly about. Still paranoia I guess if you’re airlock is in place; I’ve never had problems after years of having airspace. Is it possible that the headspace in the freshly filled carboy that is made up of "regular air" does damage before the secondary fermentation can build up enough CO2 to protect the wine? If so, is this also true with beer? Is one of these fine beverages more prone to oxidation that the other?
Yes it’s possible on both counts. I don’t know if one is more prone than the other; maybe in wine it’s easier to taste, I don’t know. Also, on a related note, it seems to me that wine makers are a little less uptight about sanitation than the brewers. One set of instructions said to put a paper towel in the neck of the primary fermenter after filling to let in oxygen for the freshly pitched yeast. I can’t imagine such craziness with my beer. Is this really OK with wine?
We are a touch less paranoid about sanitation on at least four counts: A) the sugar levels are higher in the must to begin with; higher sugar levels make infections a bit harder (though they definitely do occur!) B) the higher alcohol makes it harder for infections to survive after a while. C) the pH starts off real low, so infections also find it tough that way D) we use preservatives even during fermentation more than brewers do: sulphite in the must, ascorbic acid, tannins are an antiseptic (ok so are hops) Winemaking linx & FTP, rec.crafts.winemaking FAQ, Missing Link Rovers (Mtl Que Can), firstarter FAQ, Scouting FTP & Super Scout(er), Star Trek linx & FTP, Help Stop Spam, Zee Svedish Cheff, Summer Camp selection
Response:
Sam Dickerman wrote in part: I am a home brewer with about 6 years experience (but only 3-4 batches/year) and I’m just getting into wine making. I have a question about storing wine (and beer) in a carboy and the threat of oxidation. So far I have read three detailed descriptions about how one makes wine, and all three insist that after racking from my primary fermenter into my secondary I should fill the carboy as full as possible to minimize the risk of oxidation.
You could also use a inert gas in place of topping up (CO2, Nitrogen…) Now as a brewer I have never heard this advice, and have never even thought this could be a problem. I assumed that the blanket of CO2 produced by the yeast protected the liquid from oxidation (given that an airlock is in place to prevent a breeze from displacing the CO2).
I tend to agree here provided that there is some fermentation activity in the secondary. I can see why you would worry about oxidation if you are dealing with wine that has been stabilized (yeast=dead/asleep), but winemakers seem to worry about this problem from the beginning of secondary fermentation.
People here worry far too much. Is it possible that the headspace in the freshly filled carboy that is made up of "regular air" does damage before the secondary fermentation can build up enough CO2 to protect the wine? If so, is this also true with beer? Is one of these fine beverages more prone to oxidation that the other?
Possible. But I believe, not probable. Remember that barrel aging, although is topped up, still evaporates and is considered to be a controlled oxidation process. If you take reasonable steps, your will be fine. Use a CO2 blanket OR top up. Both beer and wine are affected by oxidation. Wine is probably more sensitive. Also, on a related note, it seems to me that wine makers are a little less uptight about sanitation than the brewers. One set of instructions said to put a paper towel in the neck of the primary fermenter after filling to let in oxygen for the freshly pitched yeast. I can’t imagine such craziness with my beer. Is this really OK with wine?
First, it seems that the instructions that come with kits are written differently every time I read one. One says to be anal. One set says to be cheap. One set says to be fast. Basically, to make wine, there is no right answer. You must ferment to YOUR style. As to this group being lax on the sanitation, read the dishwasher thread I started. About 1/2 the people here are uptight and about 1/2 take a more relaxed approach. If you take REASONABLE steps to be sanitary, your wine will be fine and will store for years. If you wish to be anal then by all means do it. It is your style. Be creative. LISTEN. Then do it your way. Brian Kuhl
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everybody: I’m posting this message to both rec.crafts.brewing and rec.crafts.winemaking to hear both groups opinions on this topic. I am a home brewer with about 6 years experience (but only 3-4 batches/year) and I’m just getting into wine making. I have a question about storing wine (and beer) in a carboy and the threat of oxidation. So far I have read three detailed descriptions about how one makes wine, and all three insist that after racking from my primary fermenter into my secondary I should fill the carboy as full as possible to minimize the risk of oxidation. Now as a brewer I have never heard this advice, and have never even thought this could be a problem. I assumed that the blanket of CO2 produced by the yeast protected the liquid from oxidation (given that an airlock is in place to prevent a breeze from displacing the CO2). I can see why you would worry about oxidation if you are dealing with wine that has been stabilized (yeast=dead/asleep), but winemakers seem to worry about this problem from the beginning of secondary fermentation. Is it possible that the headspace in the freshly filled carboy that is made up of "regular air" does damage before the secondary fermentation can build up enough CO2 to protect the wine? If so, is this also true with beer? Is one of these fine beverages more prone to oxidation that the other? Also, on a related note, it seems to me that wine makers are a little less uptight about sanitation than the brewers. One set of instructions said to put a paper towel in the neck of the primary fermenter after filling to let in oxygen for the freshly pitched yeast. I can’t imagine such craziness with my beer. Is this really OK with wine? Thanks for your thoughts. Sam
You’re OK on theory, but haven’t had the practice or you would have answered your own question. While a vigorous fermenatation will produce a layer of CO2, the wine fermentation is considerably more vigorous than the beer fermentation and would lead to trouble if you tried venting it through a little airlock. In addition, you rack wine several times after primary fermentation, introducing the possibliity of O2 contamination during transfer or while clarifying. That’s why transfers are done with as little splashing as possible and tanks (carboys) are filled close to the top. It’s also another reason (besides controlling contamination) that SO2 is used. Bill Lorowitz
Response:
Hib Sam, If you dont top off everytime you rack you will start with 5 gallons of wine and end up with 4 gallons because you loose a little wine everytime you rack your wine. Most advice seems to be rack from primary to secondary, then about 3 weeks or so after its in the secondary you rack again to get the wine off the yeast that came throught with the first racking. You then keep racking about every 3 months or more depending on the amount of stuff that settles out on the bottom. So you see if you loose some wine every time you rack and dont top off you will loose wine and end up with a large head space. Personally we make about 6 gallons at the start, rack into a 5 gallon carpboy and a 1 gallon jug. Ater each racking we top off from the jug, as the volume in the jug gets smaller it gets transferred into a magnum then a 750 ml bottle until the wine is clear. This gives us enough to top off at each racking. I am also not patient enough and clear my wine with sparkaloid, the topper also, after the second or third racking. As I only have limited carboy space I can go on to make another batch of wine while the last batch is aging in the bottle. Many winemakers like to bulk age thier wine in a 5 gallon carboy for a year or more, if I did that I would not be able to walk in my little house 
Most winemakers are keen on sanitation, dont get that wrong and get sloppy making wine. Our wines end up with 12 or more % of alcohol which in combination with other ingredients like acid levels and sulfite, things you dont worry about in making beer, inhibit spoilage to some degree. I recieved a bottle of blackberry port wine that was made in 1972, the cork was soft, loose though waxed, and fortified. It was wonderful. Beer is not made with long aging in mind but if you let your gaurd down making wine you get vinegar after waiting for it to age in the bottle. Also, different from beer, winemakers generally use sufites (a low level for me by choice) that knocks out many of the bad bugs, just like you do when you boil your wort. Good Luck and dont forget to read the winemakers FAQ, it is a big help! Blackberry Jack
Response:
Hi Sam, Topping up is very important. Wine will maderize (spelling?) which comes from the term Madeira, a fortified wine in Portugal which is intentionally oxidized by exposure to oxygen. Few people I know like the taste or appearance of a brownish, off-flavoured, oxidized table wine. This is easy enough to test for, just leave a small amount of wine in the bottom of a bottle for a few weeks and examine its appearance, taste, etc. You are of course, absolutely correct about the CO2 blanket which protects the wine from oxygenation in a container when the wine is actively fermenting or a blanket of CO2 has been artificially introduced by the winemaker. Topping up is a nuisance but there is plenty of experience, mine included, that says we must (no pun intended)! Once the wine has fermented out, it needs to be protected against oxidation and microbes. Proper handling such as not splashing or racking excessively generally takes care of the former while sulfite helps protect from both. As far as "up tight" about sanitation, I think good sanitation is necessary, like food and its preparation, most people prefer that wine be made in very clean conditions. Sterility in a home environment is impractical and sometimes we incorrectly use the term sterile when we mean clean. You’re right, there’s no need to be obsessive about it but it doesn’t hurt to err on the clean side. Also, cleaner operations usually mean lower counts of everything from vinegar flies to bacteria to yeasts, moulds and fungi, particularly when appropriate levels of sulfite are used. Sometimes this just means cleaning up properly and not leaving a lot of dirty equipment and bottles lying around with small amounts of wine in them. Good luck.
Response:
Hi Everybody: I’m posting this message to both rec.crafts.brewing and rec.crafts.winemaking to hear both groups opinions on this topic. I am a home brewer with about 6 years experience (but only 3-4 batches/year) and I’m just getting into wine making. I have a question about storing wine (and beer) in a carboy and the threat of oxidation. So far I have read three detailed descriptions about how one makes wine, and all three insist that after racking from my primary fermenter into my secondary I should fill the carboy as full as possible to minimize the risk of oxidation.
I have not brewed beer, however this is a fact when making wine. Wine contains wild yeasts and other nasties that can damage the end product if supplied with oxygen in the secondary. Cultured wine yeasts, on the other hand, do their work in the absence of oxygen at this stage. Now as a brewer I have never heard this advice, and have never even thought this could be a problem. I assumed that the blanket of CO2 produced by the yeast protected the liquid from oxidation (given that an airlock is in place to prevent a breeze from displacing the CO2). I can see why you would worry about oxidation if you are dealing with wine that has been stabilized (yeast=dead/asleep), but winemakers seem to worry about this problem from the beginning of secondary fermentation.
In most cases, wine is transferred to the secondary fermentor after most of the fermentation has been completed. Therefore the wine is not producing large quantities of CO2 like it was in the primary fermentor. Wine will usually remain in a secondary carboy for 6 – 12 months (I assume this is far longer than beer), and therefore is much more prone to infections. Is it possible that the headspace in the freshly filled carboy that is made up of "regular air" does damage before the secondary fermentation can build up enough CO2 to protect the wine? If so, is this also true with beer? Is one of these fine beverages more prone to oxidation that the other? Also, on a related note, it seems to me that wine makers are a little less uptight about sanitation than the brewers. One set of instructions said to put a paper towel in the neck of the primary fermenter after filling to let in oxygen for the freshly pitched yeast. I can’t imagine such craziness with my beer. Is this really OK with wine?
I would assume that most wine makers do not use a carboy as a primary fermentor. A bucket is used and is covered with a tightly fitting plastic sheet. Wine yeast does need oxygen at first (to produce a healthy colony), but then switches to a non-oxygen state (where it produces alcohol). This must is treated with sulfite prior to pitching the yeast. The sulfite does some injury to unwanted yeasts and bacteria, therefore allowing the cultured wine yeasts to get off to a good start without competition. The wine yeast is usually pitched 24 hours after the sulfites are added. As far as sanitation goes, I think you will find that wine makers are very concerned. It is probably one of our main discussion topics. Unlike beer ( I’m guessing here ), which is probably consumed within months, wine may be in bulk storage for years and in bottled storage for 20 more years. Bryan Casper
Response:
Hi Everybody: I’m posting this message to both rec.crafts.brewing and rec.crafts.winemaking to hear both groups opinions on this topic. I am a home brewer with about 6 years experience (but only 3-4 batches/year) and I’m just getting into wine making. I have a question about storing wine (and beer) in a carboy and the threat of oxidation. So far I have read three detailed descriptions about how one makes wine, and all three insist that after racking from my primary fermenter into my secondary I should fill the carboy as full as possible to minimize the risk of oxidation. Now as a brewer I have never heard this advice, and have never even thought this could be a problem. I assumed that the blanket of CO2 produced by the yeast protected the liquid from oxidation (given that an airlock is in place to prevent a breeze from displacing the CO2). I can see why you would worry about oxidation if you are dealing with wine that has been stabilized (yeast=dead/asleep), but winemakers seem to worry about this problem from the beginning of secondary fermentation. Is it possible that the headspace in the freshly filled carboy that is made up of "regular air" does damage before the secondary fermentation can build up enough CO2 to protect the wine? If so, is this also true with beer? Is one of these fine beverages more prone to oxidation that the other? Also, on a related note, it seems to me that wine makers are a little less uptight about sanitation than the brewers. One set of instructions said to put a paper towel in the neck of the primary fermenter after filling to let in oxygen for the freshly pitched yeast. I can’t imagine such craziness with my beer. Is this really OK with wine? Thanks for your thoughts. Sam
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