Question:
Zin, your notes on Norton are all very good, just thought I’d add a tidbit about the TA of Norton. There is something in the pigment of this grape that causes acid titrations to read high by about a gram or two per liter. Have never found anyone to describe exactly why, but have seen a demonstration of a titration on a normal sample compared to that of a decolorized sample (Ted Turner would have a fit) and the decolorized sample read considerably less in acid. This difference is not noticed on the palate, so a Norton at 7.0 g/L will taste comparable to a Cab at 5.5 or 6.0 Also, if ML is intended, it would be safe to drop the pH a little lower, say 3.4, before fermentation. TA is not much concern as Norton usually has an excessive amount of potassium to drop out whatever amount of tartaric is added. The pH will raise from the skin contact and then again from the MLF, so it’s best to get it relatively low to begin with. It’s a bit of a hairy procedure to dump a bunch of acid in a juice, especially one that is already somewhat tart, but after the results are realized the act becomes more comfortable. latron clyde
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Zin, your notes on Norton are all very good, just thought I’d add a tidbit about the TA of Norton. There is something in the pigment of this grape that causes acid titrations to read high by about a gram or two per liter. Have never found anyone to describe exactly why, but have seen a demonstration of a titration on a normal sample compared to that of a decolorized sample (Ted Turner would have a fit) and the decolorized sample read considerably less in acid. This difference is not noticed on the palate, so a Norton at 7.0 g/L will taste comparable to a Cab at 5.5 or 6.0 Also, if ML is intended, it would be safe to drop the pH a little lower, say 3.4, before fermentation. TA is not much concern as Norton usually has an excessive amount of potassium to drop out whatever amount of tartaric is added. The pH will raise from the skin contact and then again from the MLF, so it’s best to get it relatively low to begin with. It’s a bit of a hairy procedure to dump a bunch of acid in a juice, especially one that is already somewhat tart, but after the results are realized the act becomes more comfortable. latron clyde thanks for the addition Clyde, you know your Cynthiana well as you
should, being in MO. I figured if he got his acids up enough he could achieve that desired Ph range. Since Cynthiana/Norton reads high on T/A, I guess that is another plus in his favor, he can bring the Acid up even a little further, thus lowering the Ph even a tad bit more. 
the only thing that seems strange to me is the fact that with the early harvest, the T/A measurement was pretty low .70 for Norton, wouldn’t you say? Unless they had an unusually perfect growing season in TN? I am no Norton/cynthiana expert, never even heard of the grape until a couple of years ago. Maybe their growing season is very different from ours? interested in your feed back as always clyde, Zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy.
Response:
Guys, I’ve been reading with fascination all the questions / discussion about TA, pH, ML, cold stabilization, etc, and I thought I’d check out the group’s FAQ to get a better understanding of what everyone is talking about. The FAQ talks briefly about ML, but really doesn’t address the big picture – can anyone point me to an online resource that discusses when you adjust pH, TA, and use ML and cold stabilization? Something for beginners moving from kits to juice/grapes would be great! Thanks! Drew http://fast.to/strangebrew
Drew, here is a fantastic site, which gets as simple or technical as you want to delve. http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/ Lum, the author is also a member of this NG, lucky for us eh? there are many more also found in the FAQ, but this is one of my favorites for the beginner looking for a good foundation and understanding of the art. cheers, Zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Norton on our property amounts to about 1/10 of an acre; a little display plot at the entrance to the highway; all young vines (~5 years old) and not part of the original research project. I haven’t even checked them yet as verasion was only a couple of weeks ago. I’ll be trying to let ‘em hang ’til mid Sept. if the weather holds out. We had copious rain all spring and halfway through the summer, and *no* rain for the past 4 weeks. Grass is dead, but the grapes are screaming! Last year I vintified some Norton that had very similar parameters as our Arkansas friend. If memory serves me, (it often ignores me like a young waitress) they were Brix 24, pH 3.50, TA 7.2 I acidified the original must to pH 3.35, put it through MLF and 6 days of skin contact and the final pH is 3.55, TA 6.8 That stuff is still aging in the barrel and still improving. It will probably get bottled mid-November.
Clyde, that Norton sounds like it is gonna be delicious!! Very nice numbers for Norton. We may have to exchange a bottle.. I will check with my friend out here and see when he plans on harvesting since I will be out there helping in exchange for my free 15 gallons. I will post the numbers if he has some for me. cheers, Zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy.
Response:
Clyde, that Norton sounds like it is gonna be delicious!! Very nice numbers for Norton. We may have to exchange a bottle..
I’d be happy to, but unfortunately this wine is not mine. We’re fortunate enough to have customers that seek wine in bulk as well as bottles, and this was a custom batch for another winery. We have scored about a ton of Norton from Robller Vineyards, so we should have some Norton back on the shelf in a couple of years. I will check with my friend out here and see when he plans on harvesting since I will be out there helping in exchange for my free 15 gallons. I will post the numbers if he has some for me.
I’d love to see the chemistry. Thanx latron clyde
Response:
Clyde!! … what was the chemistry of the "decolorization"?? are we to believe IT did not affect the acid/base characteristics of the sample? it seems amazing to me that you could "decolorize" a wine without impacting it’s organoleptic properties!
Hi Charlie, The only important chemistry here is the fact that the titratable acids dropped by 2 g/L in the decolorized sample (his finished Norton is usually between 7 – 8 g/L) . The aroma profile changes a bit, but the purpose of the experiment is to see what happens to the taste of the acid structure, which is virtually unchanged. This is a qualitative factor, so the individuals opinion is relied on and therefore a purely scientific experiment on this subject is very difficult, if not impossible. A larger data base would help, of course. How ’bout everyone in the ng come over tonight and we’ll collect some more data! latron clyde
Response:
Clyde!! … what was the chemistry of the "decolorization"?? are we to believe IT did not affect the acid/base characteristics of the sample? it seems amazing to me that you could "decolorize" a wine without impacting it’s organoleptic properties! CharlieG
Zin, <snip demonstration of a titration on a normal sample compared to that of a decolorized sample (Ted Turner would have a fit) and the decolorized sample read considerably less in acid. This difference is not noticed on the palate,
<snip
Response:
the only thing that seems strange to me is the fact that with the early harvest, the T/A measurement was pretty low .70 for Norton, wouldn’t you say? Unless they had an unusually perfect growing season in TN? I am no Norton/cynthiana expert, never even heard of the grape until a couple of years ago. Maybe their growing season is very different from ours?
Hey Zin, If they had a season anything like ours this year, then they are right on time. It is early, but everything is early this year in this area. Post Winery is about 300 miles due south of us and they have a bit more in the degree days than we do. They are typically a month ahead of us and can even grow vinifera consistantly. The Norton on our property amounts to about 1/10 of an acre; a little display plot at the entrance to the highway; all young vines (~5 years old) and not part of the original research project. I haven’t even checked them yet as verasion was only a couple of weeks ago. I’ll be trying to let ‘em hang ’til mid Sept. if the weather holds out. We had copious rain all spring and halfway through the summer, and *no* rain for the past 4 weeks. Grass is dead, but the grapes are screaming! Last year I vintified some Norton that had very similar parameters as our Arkansas friend. If memory serves me, (it often ignores me like a young waitress) they were Brix 24, pH 3.50, TA 7.2 I acidified the original must to pH 3.35, put it through MLF and 6 days of skin contact and the final pH is 3.55, TA 6.8 That stuff is still aging in the barrel and still improving. It will probably get bottled mid-November. I pressed out kT’s Seyval today (had a few lugs of Villard Blanc thrown in. wasn’t sure whether to call it Villard Seyval or Seville) We pulled it in because it was close to being ripe, but also because the birds (and subsequently the bees, hornets, wasps and flies) were having their way with it. Very strong VA aroma went away completely after the pressing process, which was never a concern because yeast fermentation will consume a fair amount of acetic acid if it’s there from the start. Villard cluster sample was Brix 16 pH 2.98 TA 1.09 Final must is Brix 20.5 pH 3.35 TA 7.5 (luck’s better than skill) tasty stuff with very low tannins. 889 pounds yielded 62 gallons. I hit it hard with SO2: 70 ppm, and fined with gel (10 gm) and kies (75 ml). Tomorrow I’ll rack and inoculate with Cotes des Blanc, plus some Fermaid. No acid adjustment needed. No sugar needed. latron clyde
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Zin, your notes on Norton are all very good, just thought I’d add a tidbit about the TA of Norton. There is something in the pigment of this grape that causes acid titrations to read high by about a gram or two per liter. Have never found anyone to describe exactly why, but have seen a demonstration of a titration on a normal sample compared to that of a decolorized sample (Ted Turner would have a fit) and the decolorized sample read considerably less in acid. This difference is not noticed on the palate, so a Norton at 7.0 g/L will taste comparable to a Cab at 5.5 or 6.0 Also, if ML is intended, it would be safe to drop the pH a little lower, say 3.4, before fermentation. TA is not much concern as Norton usually has an excessive amount of potassium to drop out whatever amount of tartaric is added. The pH will raise from the skin contact and then again from the MLF, so it’s best to get it relatively low to begin with. It’s a bit of a hairy procedure to dump a bunch of acid in a juice, especially one that is already somewhat tart, but after the results are realized the act becomes more comfortable. latron clyde thanks for the addition Clyde, you know your Cynthiana well as you should, being in MO. I figured if he got his acids up enough he could achieve that desired Ph range. Since Cynthiana/Norton reads high on T/A, I guess that is another plus in his favor, he can bring the Acid up even a little further, thus lowering the Ph even a tad bit more. ;- ) the only thing that seems strange to me is the fact that with the early harvest, the T/A measurement was pretty low .70 for Norton, wouldn’t you say? Unless they had an unusually perfect growing season in TN? I am no Norton/cynthiana expert, never even heard of the grape until a couple of years ago. Maybe their growing season is very different from ours? interested in your feed back as always clyde, Zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy.
I rechecked the cythania before fermentation and the TA had went up to time for Cythania and so I will leave it alone, I put pastuer red wyeast on it last night and it is just bubbling away now, I have punched the cap down twice today and expect to do it twice more before I lay down tonight. It is starting to get juicy!!! Next year I will do some more fiddling on my pH and TA…but for now I shall let it work! BTW. Post Winery in Altus Arkansas is picking Cythania now, so as far as the time to pick seems they are ripe here in north central Arkansas. Cheers Before you buy.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have cythania getting ready to ferment. I have a TA of .7 brix of 23 and pH of 3.6 should I use ML acid on this wine??? if so when do I put it on the must and what are the chances of really screwing up this wine by using it?? thanks Before you buy. WOW!, great numbers on the Cynthiana, you might want to add a little Tartaric acid to bring the Ph down a tad since your acid is at .70, you still have a little room to work with. Check your measurement tables for correct additon. You can bring the acid up to .75-.80, and still be safe. By putting it through a ML and cold stabilization, you will eventually bring that acid level back down to a very nice range. You will add a ML "culture" not acid. It converts malic acid into lactic acid (softer more stable acid). Do this just after your primary fermentation when you put it into your secondary vessel. It wouldn’t hurt to invest in a ML test kit. They aren’t perfect, but it gives you a pretty good idea when ML is finished. While aging, if it tastes quite bitter or acidic, don’t fret, mine was like that all the way up until after cold stabilization, then it tasted great!, I can’t wait to see what some bottle aging does for it. Use med. toast French oak, it will do wonders for your cynthiana. cheers, Zinful —
OOPS!, a slight correction, you can bring the T/A up to .85, I stated .80 on the previous post. sorry about that, Zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy.
Response:
Guys, I’ve been reading with fascination all the questions / discussion about TA, pH, ML, cold stabilization, etc, and I thought I’d check out the group’s FAQ to get a better understanding of what everyone is talking about. The FAQ talks briefly about ML, but really doesn’t address the big picture – can anyone point me to an online resource that discusses when you adjust pH, TA, and use ML and cold stabilization? Something for beginners moving from kits to juice/grapes would be great! Thanks! Drew http://fast.to/strangebrew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have cythania getting ready to ferment. I have a TA of .7 brix of 23 and pH of 3.6 … WOW!, great numbers on the Cynthiana, you might want to add a little Tartaric acid to bring the Ph down a tad since your acid is at .70, you still have a little room to work with. Check your measurement tables for correct additon. You can bring the acid up to .75-.80, and still be safe. By putting it through a ML and cold stabilization, you will eventually bring that acid level back down to a very nice range.
… .
Response:
I have cythania getting ready to ferment. I have a TA of .7 brix of 23 and pH of 3.6 should I use ML acid on this wine??? if so when do I put it on the must and what are the chances of really screwing up this wine by using it?? thanks Before you buy.
Response:
I have cythania getting ready to ferment. I have a TA of .7 brix of 23 and pH of 3.6 should I use ML acid on this wine??? if so when do I put it on the must and what are the chances of really screwing up this wine by using it?? thanks Before you buy.
WOW!, great numbers on the Cynthiana, you might want to add a little Tartaric acid to bring the Ph down a tad since your acid is at .70, you still have a little room to work with. Check your measurement tables for correct additon. You can bring the acid up to .75-.80, and still be safe. By putting it through a ML and cold stabilization, you will eventually bring that acid level back down to a very nice range. You will add a ML "culture" not acid. It converts malic acid into lactic acid (softer more stable acid). Do this just after your primary fermentation when you put it into your secondary vessel. It wouldn’t hurt to invest in a ML test kit. They aren’t perfect, but it gives you a pretty good idea when ML is finished. While aging, if it tastes quite bitter or acidic, don’t fret, mine was like that all the way up until after cold stabilization, then it tasted great!, I can’t wait to see what some bottle aging does for it. Use med. toast French oak, it will do wonders for your cynthiana. cheers, Zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have cythania getting ready to ferment. I have a TA of .7 brix of 23 and pH of 3.6 should I use ML acid on this wine??? if so when do I put it on the must and what are the chances of really screwing up this wine by using it?? thanks Before you buy. WOW!, great numbers on the Cynthiana, you might want to add a little Tartaric acid to bring the Ph down a tad since your acid is at .70, you still have a little room to work with. Check your measurement tables for correct additon. You can bring the acid up to .75-.80, and still be safe. By putting it through a ML and cold stabilization, you will eventually bring that acid level back down to a very nice range. You will add a ML "culture" not acid. It converts malic acid into lactic acid (softer more stable acid). Do this just after your primary fermentation when you put it into your secondary vessel. It wouldn’t hurt to invest in a ML test kit. They aren’t perfect, but it gives you a pretty good idea when ML is finished. While aging, if it tastes quite bitter or acidic, don’t fret, mine was like that all the way up until after cold stabilization, then it tasted great!, I can’t wait to see what some bottle aging does for it. Use med. toast French oak, it will do wonders for your cynthiana. cheers, Zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy. Sounds like a plan!!!!! So there really is not anything that can go bad wrong by adding the ML culture??? I have read so many opinions on this I am confused!!! also…what are the chances of ML taking place on it’s own??? Before you buy.
I mis-read, I thought your Ph was 3.5, 3.6 is a little worrisome. be sure to see the previous discussions by the NG on high acid/high Ph fermentations. Some very good advice to follow in that thread. Nothing will go wrong, you should almost always do a ML on reds unless your T/A is really low, or you are making light fruity reds. Plus, ML adds complexity and new nuances to your wine. If you have done a ML before in the area you are now making wine, you are jsut about guaranteed to get a natural ML. I would suggest using a culture for many reasons, but the basic reasons are: If doing a ML you will have very minimal free SO2 in your wine, by encouraging ML with a culture you speed up the process, thus the least amount of time before you add sulphite when ML is done. You want to add your SO2 as soon as possible (after ML) to ensure a healthy (asceptic) environment. Some problems have been known to arise from a natural ML, you can research that, it’s too involved for this response. If someone else wants to add to this please be my guest. cheers, Zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have cythania getting ready to ferment. I have a TA of .7 brix of 23 and pH of 3.6 should I use ML acid on this wine??? if so when do I put it on the must and what are the chances of really screwing up this wine by using it?? thanks Before you buy. WOW!, great numbers on the Cynthiana, you might want to add a little Tartaric acid to bring the Ph down a tad since your acid is at .70, you still have a little room to work with. Check your measurement tables for correct additon. You can bring the acid up to .75-.80, and still be safe. By putting it through a ML and cold stabilization, you will eventually bring that acid level back down to a very nice range. You will add a ML "culture" not acid. It converts malic acid into lactic acid (softer more stable acid). Do this just after your primary fermentation when you put it into your secondary vessel. It wouldn’t hurt to invest in a ML test kit. They aren’t perfect, but it gives you a pretty good idea when ML is finished. While aging, if it tastes quite bitter or acidic, don’t fret, mine was like that all the way up until after cold stabilization, then it tasted great!, I can’t wait to see what some bottle aging does for it. Use med. toast French oak, it will do wonders for your cynthiana. cheers, Zinful — Fine wine & a good woman, who needs anything more? Before you buy.
Sounds like a plan!!!!! So there really is not anything that can go bad wrong by adding the ML culture??? I have read so many opinions on this I am confused!!! also…what are the chances of ML taking place on it’s own??? Before you buy.
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