Question:
I have a trial going on now with strawberries. The first 3 gal had 4.5lbs per gallon water added, the second has 8.25lbs per gallon, pure crushed berries undiluted. Next year I think I’ll use all the different fruits I grow or can obtain fresh locally to make several 1 gallon test batches for comparison, 1 gallon undiluted (unless needed to adjust Brix or acid) & 1 gallon by the traditional diluted recipes. Perhaps I’ll determine why all the recipes I’ve seen are diluted, perhaps not. Either way I’ll be able to justify making a damn good variety of wines! Jeff
Response:
Will read your page in a bit, you have answered me in what I presumed would be the basic thought, "A Matter Of Taste". I know there are more reasons and will do a bit of research and making to answer this question. But I really think it is going to boil down to preferences in most cases… Thanks for the response and hope it does not start any Grape vs. Fruit wars… — Ben & Linda McCune Honey Creek Acres
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Exactly!!! I’ve had debates on this topic in this ng for months! See the thread: The "fruit winemaking culture" (&) dilution of fruit wines for an example of a very long thread full of debate. (Interestingly, I have also found high juice concentrations to provide better mouthfeel, aroma and flavour, and often they appear to exhibit more complexity and balance. I’m also a fan of concentrated flavours and aromas in wine and I don’t believe this position is uncommon because pretty well all the highly admired grape wines in the world are ones that have this attribute *and* good balance.
Response:
Ben, and anyone interested, Ben McCune wrote in thread "A Re Post on the Brix Fruit Chart and a question": (gal). I have made this one 3 different ways, same recipe each time, only difference is quantity of fruit/juice. Used 4lbs – 5lbs and then pure juice (was a mix of fresh, approx 6lbs., cherries and 100% concentrate, no water added). The pure juice was the best, better mouth feel/ taste/ smell. Naturally adjusted sugar accordingly, all started at approx. 1095, all used RC212. Understand a recipe is only a map and not wrote in stone. My question, other than cost, Why is Country Wines not like Grape Wines and pure juice not solely used? Using my trees/fruits have done the same with Apricots/Peaches and same deal, much better to me.
Exactly!!! I’ve had debates on this topic in this ng for months! See the thread: The "fruit winemaking culture" (&) dilution of fruit wines for an example of a very long thread full of debate. (Interestingly, ECWine whose original "pineapple wine" thread post sparked my initial post on this thread found he agreed with my position.) I have also found high juice concentrations to provide better mouthfeel, aroma and flavour, and often they appear to exhibit more complexity and balance. I’m also a fan of concentrated flavours and aromas in wine and I don’t believe this position is uncommon because pretty well all the highly admired grape wines in the world are ones that have this attribute *and* good balance. Since the aformentioned thread I wrote an article outlining the common views on this and my position on them. This is at my webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/100juice.htm I would recommend that anyone interested in this topic read that article (especially if they wish to debate on this topic) for a thourough coverage, because often in this debate tangents come out which do not cover the central issue. For example, in the aforementioned thread many people debated that "fruit wines are not grape wines" and that was not the point. The point was not that you compare a Syrah’s *flavour profile* to a Blackberry’s but that the concentration of flavour *in a* Syrah wine can be comparative to the concentration of flavour in a Blackberry wine. Likewise for balance, style etc *within the wine style/type*. I’d also stress that this topic/debate is partly concerned with a matter of taste and is *not* aimed at people who are content making wine the way they make it. Some people do prefer to drink light bodied, light flavoured wines, all the time and these wines have their place for every wine drinker. If you are happy diluting, keep diluting – winemaking is a personal philosophy and there is no "right" or "wrong". But for those of us who seek concentrated flavours in our wines, who feel that they’d like to try something different or who are willing to experiment etc, then this topic may be of interest. Also, it need not be said that I’m *not* talking about, for example, flower wines where it is neccessary to add water for a liquid must. For those that can’t access the above URL I’ll provide the following (and apologise for the extended length of this message): (1) Fruit with low juice content (eg rhubarb, blueberries) often `requires’ water to be added to obtain a liquid must. However, most fruit winemakers use low quantities of fruit in these cases. When using fruit with a low juice yield, high quantities of fruit can still be used (i.e. you could use 2lb/gall or 8lb/gall) and this will obviously increase concentration of flavour. (2) Perhaps the most frequent reason for diluting is to obtain better balance – i.e. many fruits (when using 100% juice) have very high acid or tannin contents and so the juice is diluted to reduce the acidity/tannin content. Of course, this also reduces the flavour concentration so what I’d encourage is an effort to obtain better balance with minimal loss of flavour concentration. Methods for doing this might be as follows: *Sweeten the final wine (and possibly make it with a high alcohol content) to mask the acidity. *Acid metabolisation by yeast: use a yeast such as 71B-1122 (available from Lalvin) which can metabolise 20-40% of the malic acid present in the must during fermentation. *Chemical deacidification: deacidify with potassium carbonate. *MLF: generally avoided in non-grape winemaking since the emphasis for non-grape /`fruit’ wines is usually placed on fruitiness, but it is a possibility. *Blending: blend with (an also) full-flavoured lower acid wine (e.g. banana). Aside from these two issues there are some others I’ve heard quoted which are: *Some fruit winemakers suggest there is a tolerance threshold for concentration of fruit, a limit to flavour intensity. A classic to quote is raspberry, whose aromas and flavours (it is claimed) are too powerful to use in high concentration in a wine. Those holding this philosophy claim the resulting wine is undrinkable. I argue that if you like concentrated flavours *and* the wine is balanced, you won’t find wines undrinkable. *Some fruit winemakers claim dilution is required for a non-grape wine to attain it’s `wine’ or `vinous’ character. They claim that non-grape wines with high juice concentrations taste more like alcoholic fruit juice than wine. In my opinion, this is ridiculous: concentrated fruit wine doesn’t taste like alcoholic fruit juice, just as concentrated grape wine doesn’t taste like alcoholic grape juice – it is wine, not juice with alcohol added. There is a lot in the above, but I hope that gives anyone interested an overview of my position. Thanks for reading, Ben Improved Winemaking http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/
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