Question:
Hi Tim, This crush was a tough one. However, most of the grapes have been picked in San Diego County, and it looks like I have survived another season.
(good advice snipped) Thanks for the input Lum, I wasn’t aware that this harevest was tough, what happened? Has the weather been cool? I ask this because usually the grapes I get come in at higher SG numbers and last year I received them on September 15th, three weeks earlier. Tim
Response:
Hi Tim, Some seasons the early grapes get picked and then the weather turns cool. The later ripening grapes linger and linger. We started picking local grapes in early August this year and we are still picking the late varieties. I crushed a load of Carignane Saturday. Makes for a long crush season. This year, I tested sugars for several vineyards, did fermentation testing at two small wineries and made my own wine. The long season was just about too much for me. I must be getting old. Regards, lum
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Tim, This crush was a tough one. However, most of the grapes have been picked in San Diego County, and it looks like I have survived another season. (good advice snipped) Thanks for the input Lum, I wasn’t aware that this harevest was tough, what happened? Has the weather been cool? I ask this because usually the grapes I get come in at higher SG numbers and last year I received them on September 15th, three weeks earlier. Tim
Response:
snip…. Also, let me take this opportunity to mention how much I appreciate your generosity. I have printed out your book and read it cover to cover. Its a terrific reference for newcomers like myself. Thank you..! Jim
Thanks for the kind words Jim. Regards, lum
Response:
The Syrah from the Central Valley (Cal) finally came in. Does this seem late? I thought others were getting their Syrah a few weeks ago, but I could be mistaken. Here are the numbers: Brix 22.5, SG 1.094 TA .61% pH 3.68 Price ~31.50 US/36 lbs. pH seems a little high, but I noticed that Lum in an earlier thread suggested to go ahead and ferment at these values for a Petite Sirah. Question 1: What do people think, adjust or let it go? Question 2: I find it difficult to estimate the volume of must. I know the conversion of lbs. of grapes to pressed juice, but what about lbs. of grapes to must volume. If I make acid adjustments I would like to make them as precisely as possible. Any suggestions? Thanks for help. Tim PS Anyone else waiting for the Northwest Harvest to get into full swing?
Response:
Hi Tim, This crush was a tough one. However, most of the grapes have been picked in San Diego County, and it looks like I have survived another season. I think acidifying all red must to a pH of 3.3 prior to fermentation is a mistake. Wines made this way often have TA values in the 0.65 to 0.75 range after fermentation, and these wine are often described as crisp, lean, sharp, hard, etc. After twenty years of judging, I am convinced that the gold medal winning red wines are the round, fat, soft, voluptuous, etc. wines, and these wines seldom have TA values above 0.65. specifically, I feel many of the red varieties such as Carignane, Petite Sirah, Zinfandel generally benefit from low acid values. Emile Peynaurd discusses soft red wines. The following quote is from Knowing and Making Wine, page 89. "Great red wines that show well are always supple, fat wines with low acidity, which is precisely what makes it difficult to produce them successfully. In working with wines, you are always coming across this conflict between security and quality. The conditions that make for great wine quality are the ones that make vinification and storage more critical. The years of full maturity are those when the wine is most difficult to make with success. Acidification is often just a way for the winemaker to save himself trouble and not have to worry. Although it is difficult to give a general rule for this operation, it is admitted that slight acidification may be resorted to for crops showing an overall must acidity of less than 4 g/l (as sulfuric acid). The pH gives another indication: acidification is warranted when this is over, say, 3.6." I think Emile Peynaurd makes a good case. I add acid until the pH is about 3.6 and then stop. I accept the small risk in hopes of producing a better wine. I probably would do nothing to your Petite Sirah grapes. But, I probably would add a small amount of acid after fermentation depending on the taste. Regards, lum
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Syrah from the Central Valley (Cal) finally came in. Does this seem late? I thought others were getting their Syrah a few weeks ago, but I could be mistaken. Here are the numbers: Brix 22.5, SG 1.094 TA .61% pH 3.68 Price ~31.50 US/36 lbs. pH seems a little high, but I noticed that Lum in an earlier thread suggested to go ahead and ferment at these values for a Petite Sirah. Question 1: What do people think, adjust or let it go? Question 2: I find it difficult to estimate the volume of must. I know the conversion of lbs. of grapes to pressed juice, but what about lbs. of grapes to must volume. If I make acid adjustments I would like to make them as precisely as possible. Any suggestions? Thanks for help. Tim PS Anyone else waiting for the Northwest Harvest to get into full swing?
Response:
Hey there is a key that takes "Caps Lock" off or even OFF!!!! Please please dont shout! or otherwise go into lower — From Trevor A Panther In South Yorkshire, England 01709 869522 "Wine is a delight to all the senses"
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – THE ONLY NUMBER I SEE THATS OUT OF WACK IT THE PRICE. I PAID ABOUT 20.00 36LBS. SORRY. DICK
Response:
Hi Lum, As a new winemaker, I have really struggled with acid adjustments. Particularly when you add in an ML fermentation. Last year I started with a Chardonnay that had a T/A after yeast fermentation of 6.5 g/l. After MLF it went to 4.5. The wine tasted very smooth and supple and I of course wondered whether I should add acid back in for safety reasons. I read the quote you mention in Peynaud and finally ended up adding 1 g/l tartaric to bring T/A up to 5.5. The wine turned out to be our favorite. Still I wonder the long range impacts as the wine ages. Jon Iverson, wrote "Home Winemaking Step by Step" and sometimes comments on this newsgroup. His book was my guiding light in making the Chardonnay along with the members of this newsgroup. Here is what Iverson says on page 75, third paragraph, " Be cautious when adding acid, and never add more than necessary. Raising the acidity of a finished wine by .1% (1 g/l) with artificial acids is a significant correction which should be exceeded only when absolutely necessary. A wine to which more has been added might taste fine initially, but the acid addition will become increasingly harsh and noticeable as the wine ages…." I don’t know what Jon is basing this information on; however, I have become very cautious when adding Tartaric. On the other hand, not enough acidity has its obvious drawbacks too. No doubt the characteristics of the particularly wine your making, the planned fermentation process and the expected life of the wine play a role in determining whether to add acid and by how much. Also, let me take this opportunity to mention how much I appreciate your generosity. I have printed out your book and read it cover to cover. Its a terrific reference for newcomers like myself. Thank you..! Jim
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Tim, This crush was a tough one. However, most of the grapes have been picked in San Diego County, and it looks like I have survived another season. I think acidifying all red must to a pH of 3.3 prior to fermentation is a mistake. Wines made this way often have TA values in the 0.65 to 0.75 range after fermentation, and these wine are often described as crisp, lean, sharp, hard, etc. After twenty years of judging, I am convinced that the gold medal winning red wines are the round, fat, soft, voluptuous, etc. wines, and these wines seldom have TA values above 0.65. specifically, I feel many of the red varieties such as Carignane, Petite Sirah, Zinfandel generally benefit from low acid values. Emile Peynaurd discusses soft red wines. The following quote is from Knowing and Making Wine, page 89. "Great red wines that show well are always supple, fat wines with low acidity, which is precisely what makes it difficult to produce them successfully. In working with wines, you are always coming across this conflict between security and quality. The conditions that make for great wine quality are the ones that make vinification and storage more critical. The years of full maturity are those when the wine is most difficult to make with success. Acidification is often just a way for the winemaker to save himself trouble and not have to worry. Although it is difficult to give a general rule for this operation, it is admitted that slight acidification may be resorted to for crops showing an overall must acidity of less than 4 g/l (as sulfuric acid). The pH gives another indication: acidification is warranted when this is over, say, 3.6." I think Emile Peynaurd makes a good case. I add acid until the pH is about 3.6 and then stop. I accept the small risk in hopes of producing a better wine. I probably would do nothing to your Petite Sirah grapes. But, I probably would add a small amount of acid after fermentation depending on the taste. Regards, lum The Syrah from the Central Valley (Cal) finally came in. Does this seem late? I thought others were getting their Syrah a few weeks ago, but I could be mistaken. Here are the numbers: Brix 22.5, SG 1.094 TA .61% pH 3.68 Price ~31.50 US/36 lbs. pH seems a little high, but I noticed that Lum in an earlier thread suggested to go ahead and ferment at these values for a Petite Sirah. Question 1: What do people think, adjust or let it go? Question 2: I find it difficult to estimate the volume of must. I know the conversion of lbs. of grapes to pressed juice, but what about lbs. of grapes to must volume. If I make acid adjustments I would like to make them as precisely as possible. Any suggestions? Thanks for help. Tim PS Anyone else waiting for the Northwest Harvest to get into full swing?
Response:
THE ONLY NUMBER I SEE THATS OUT OF WACK IT THE PRICE. I PAID ABOUT 20.00 36LBS. SORRY. DICK
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -…snip… Emile Peynaurd discusses soft red wines. The following quote is from Knowing and Making Wine, page 89. "Great red wines that show well are always supple, fat wines with low acidity, which is precisely what makes it difficult to produce them successfully. In working with wines, you are always coming across this conflict between security and quality. The conditions that make for great wine quality are the ones that make vinification and storage more critical. The years of full maturity are those when the wine is most difficult to make with success. Acidification is often just a way for the winemaker to save himself trouble and not have to worry. Although it is difficult to give a general rule for this operation, it is admitted that slight acidification may be resorted to for crops showing an overall must acidity of less than 4 g/l (as sulfuric acid). The pH gives another indication: acidification is warranted when this is over, say, 3.6." …snip…
Hi All: Just as a point of clarification, a TA of 4 g/L as sulfuric is equal to 6.1 g/L (0.61%) as tartaric. Prosit: Ed — The Viticulture FAQ & Glossary – http://www.itsmysite.com/vitfaq "I like on the table, when we’re speaking, The light of a bottle of intelligent wine." -Pablo Neruda
Response:
The Syrah from the Central Valley (Cal) finally came in. Does this seem late? I thought others were getting their Syrah a few weeks ago, but I could be mistaken. Here are the numbers: Brix 22.5, SG 1.094 TA .61% pH 3.68 Price ~31.50 US/36 lbs. pH seems a little high, but I noticed that Lum in an earlier thread suggested to go ahead and ferment at these values for a Petite Sirah. Question 1: What do people think, adjust or let it go?
Hi Tim: I would probably make a conservaive addition of tartaric. Probably on the order of 0.9 g/L. This would increas the TA to 7.0g/L & probably move the pH to between 3.50 & 3.60. Lum’s right. Particularly with Rhone sytle wines, lower acid/higher pH is important to taste. Question 2: I find it difficult to estimate the volume of must. I know the conversion of lbs. of grapes to pressed juice, but what about lbs. of grapes to must volume. If I make acid adjustments I would like to make them as precisely as possible. Any suggestions?…snip…
The amount of must generated by crushed & mostly destemmed red grapes varies slightly, based on variety, between 1 USGal per 10Lbs (1L / 1.2Kg) & 1 USGal per 11.5 Lbs. (1L / 1.38Kg). Finally, remember that all adjustments to the must (sugar & acid) should be made based upon the _total volume of the must_ (skins & all), & not just the expected amount of pressed must. Good luck. Hope this helps. Prosit: Ed — The Viticulture FAQ & Glossary – http://www.itsmysite.com/vitfaq "I like on the table, when we’re speaking, The light of a bottle of intelligent wine." -Pablo Neruda
Response:
Tim, Lum, et.al. I’ve mostly stayed out of the discussion of adjusting pre-fermentation of red must to a level of 3.3-3.4. I stayed out because I generally agree with Lum. I don’t have experience with vinifera but with the hybrids I might work toward a maximum pH at finish rather than a starting pH. For example I’ve bottled Norton at slightly under 3.7. Chambourcin is usually fairly easy get to bottle at around 3.5-3.6. Baco is a trial: w/o tartaric addition it likes to hit 3.9-4.0 sometimes; also it likes to turn brown when over 3.5 and to obtain an end pH of 3.5 sometimes means TA over 7.0 gm/litre – not good. After some experience with a variety I do sometimes add acid prior to fermentation; when I know I’ll have to add it sometime and about how much, then I stay conservative, leaving room to add a bit to finalize rather than having to reduce acidity at bottling. I also agree with Lum that a red wine is fuller and fatter and richer if the TA is below 7 gm/litre in the bottle. Particularly with red vinifera, the structure often resides with tannins, flavors, & alcohol content. Pinot noir may be the exception whose structure involves more acidity. Fred
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Tim, This crush was a tough one. However, most of the grapes have been picked in San Diego County, and it looks like I have survived another season. I think acidifying all red must to a pH of 3.3 prior to fermentation is a mistake. Wines made this way often have TA values in the 0.65 to 0.75 range after fermentation, and these wine are often described as crisp, lean, sharp, hard, etc. After twenty years of judging, I am convinced that the gold medal winning red wines are the round, fat, soft, voluptuous, etc. wines, and these wines seldom have TA values above 0.65. specifically, I feel many of the red varieties such as Carignane, Petite Sirah, Zinfandel generally benefit from low acid values. Emile Peynaurd discusses soft red wines. The following quote is from Knowing and Making Wine, page 89. "Great red wines that show well are always supple, fat wines with low acidity, which is precisely what makes it difficult to produce them successfully. In working with wines, you are always coming across this conflict between security and quality. The conditions that make for great wine quality are the ones that make vinification and storage more critical. The years of full maturity are those when the wine is most difficult to make with success. Acidification is often just a way for the winemaker to save himself trouble and not have to worry. Although it is difficult to give a general rule for this operation, it is admitted that slight acidification may be resorted to for crops showing an overall must acidity of less than 4 g/l (as sulfuric acid). The pH gives another indication: acidification is warranted when this is over, say, 3.6." I think Emile Peynaurd makes a good case. I add acid until the pH is about 3.6 and then stop. I accept the small risk in hopes of producing a better wine. I probably would do nothing to your Petite Sirah grapes. But, I probably would add a small amount of acid after fermentation depending on the taste. Regards, lum The Syrah from the Central Valley (Cal) finally came in. Does this seem late? I thought others were getting their Syrah a few weeks ago, but I could be mistaken. Here are the numbers: Brix 22.5, SG 1.094 TA .61% pH 3.68 Price ~31.50 US/36 lbs. pH seems a little high, but I noticed that Lum in an earlier thread suggested to go ahead and ferment at these values for a Petite Sirah. Question 1: What do people think, adjust or let it go? Question 2: I find it difficult to estimate the volume of must. I know the conversion of lbs. of grapes to pressed juice, but what about lbs. of grapes to must volume. If I make acid adjustments I would like to make them as precisely as possible. Any suggestions? Thanks for help. Tim PS Anyone else waiting for the Northwest Harvest to get into full swing?
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