Question:
Rottengrapes, Thanks for sharing your process. Do you/have you always use kits in this way? How long will you bottle age/store a batch made from this method? The talk on this list is that the chemical shortcuts prescribed by kit methods will put a damper on aging a kit wine. Am I correct in saying that by not taking the chemical shortcuts you are effectively not making a "kit" wine, but rather using the concentrate and yeast that came as part of a kit?? Lisa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All I have to do to avoid all this stuff is take 6 months or more to finish a 28 day kit. Of course, the finished product is much better than the 28 day product would have been.
Response:
I dare say, not the same old Jack. Seriously, I think it’s a great idea to use a juice usually drank by children through a straw from a box. I also think that to stretch it to it’s, perhaps, limits by subjecting the resultant brew to the maximum, that of oaking and an ML ferment, will be the truest test of the winemakers art. I guess my biggest question though is, how does it taste when slugged down from a Riedel tasting glass? He might be onto something here if he can knock off some of the old standards.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Alright! The old Jack is back! By golly that’s a great experiment! I doubt that’s been done before. And to oak the Welches, what a novel idea. But even better yet, an ML. Please keep all of us advised, we’ll be hanging on every word.
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I agree Jack, It sounds like it has some potential…and for $15 US!! Too bad we have to rely on discriptions and can’t cyber-sample a few mouthfuls when it’s ready!!
" By golly that’s a great experiment! If you’ve seen my other posts, you’ve seen that I’m planning on planting either this spring or next. I’ll probably plant Viognier and Mourvedre initially
Now THAT sounds like fun! I think that wine making it a great and enjoyable art. And if I grew my own grapes….well, I think every bottle would seem more to me like one of my children than a beverage!! Do keep us posted on the Chateau de Welches!! Lisa
Response:
Alright! The old Jack is back!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By golly that’s a great experiment! I doubt that’s been done before. And to oak the Welches, what a novel idea. But even better yet, an ML. Please keep all of us advised, we’ll be hanging on every word.
Response:
By golly that’s a great experiment! I doubt that’s been done before. And to oak the Welches, what a novel idea. But even better yet, an ML. Please keep all of us advised, we’ll be hanging on every word.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, I have another carboy going right now that’s a red, Chateau de Welches. It’s 12 or 14 of the small Welches 100% Grape Juice concentrate (the red stuff), which I think is Concord grape juice. I mixed it up according to the instructions. I added sugar to bring it up to about 1.100 S.G. and added acid blend to get it around 0.60-0.65% TA and sulfited it to 40ppm. I also added 4 lbs of Sun Maid raisins (chopped coarsely in the food processor) for "skins." I don’t expect this to be much of a great wine. My main goal was to learn a little about red winemaking. I will say that watching the color change while it fermented on the (raisin) skins was interesting. It went onto home made toasted oak sticks (about 2 oz) on December 7 and is nearly finished fermenting now. The oak is really kicking in and it seems to mask the grape koolaid foxiness of the Concord juice. The raisins also added some interesting flavors in addition to the color. It’s a little strong in acidity right now. I think it might have picked up some acidity and defnitely some tannins from the raisins too. I’ve even thought about putting in the ML culture that I got a few weeks ago. I initially bought that for the chardonay, but the chardonay is so fruity and good now that I probably won’t induce ML in it. I was looking for a red to start back when I started the Chardonay, but nothing really looked that interesting, and the grocery store had the Welches for buy one get one free. I thought, what the heck. I must have $10-$15(US) in that carboy at this point (including the raisins and the sugar). Even if I pour it down the drain, I’ve learned quite a bit and haven’t spent much. I’ll probably keep it around as "my first red" and for its shock value. If I were going to be making kits for the long term, I’d probably start looking at some of the "just the juice" type concentrates, juices or musts. I’d also consider the Brehm Vineyards frozen grapes. I’m looking to start one more wine in February. Probably a red. Either a Barolo or a Mourvedre (Mataro) or maybe a Shiraz (Syrah). If I get a lot of business in the next month or so, I might even buy some of the Brehm 1999 Mourvedre frozen grapes. Then, in March, I’m planning to get a 2000 Viognier kit. If you’ve seen my other posts, you’ve seen that I’m planning on planting either this spring or next. I’ll probably plant Viognier and Mourvedre initially. Also, I’m negotiating right now to get some relatively local Viognier and Mourvedre grapes this fall. <snip Have you ever considered buying just the concentrate, from a can? Or using imported fresh juice? That way you wouldn’t have all the extra stuff kicking around that you aren’t going to use! Cheers! Lisa — Check out Rotten Grapes winemaking and viticulture bookmarks
Response:
Actually, I have another carboy going right now that’s a red, Chateau de Welches. It’s 12 or 14 of the small Welches 100% Grape Juice concentrate (the red stuff), which I think is Concord grape juice. I mixed it up according to the instructions. I added sugar to bring it up to about 1.100 S.G. and added acid blend to get it around 0.60-0.65% TA and sulfited it to 40ppm. I also added 4 lbs of Sun Maid raisins (chopped coarsely in the food processor) for "skins." I don’t expect this to be much of a great wine. My main goal was to learn a little about red winemaking. I will say that watching the color change while it fermented on the (raisin) skins was interesting. It went onto home made toasted oak sticks (about 2 oz) on December 7 and is nearly finished fermenting now. The oak is really kicking in and it seems to mask the grape koolaid foxiness of the Concord juice. The raisins also added some interesting flavors in addition to the color. It’s a little strong in acidity right now. I think it might have picked up some acidity and defnitely some tannins from the raisins too. I’ve even thought about putting in the ML culture that I got a few weeks ago. I initially bought that for the chardonay, but the chardonay is so fruity and good now that I probably won’t induce ML in it. I was looking for a red to start back when I started the Chardonay, but nothing really looked that interesting, and the grocery store had the Welches for buy one get one free. I thought, what the heck. I must have $10-$15(US) in that carboy at this point (including the raisins and the sugar). Even if I pour it down the drain, I’ve learned quite a bit and haven’t spent much. I’ll probably keep it around as "my first red" and for its shock value. If I were going to be making kits for the long term, I’d probably start looking at some of the "just the juice" type concentrates, juices or musts. I’d also consider the Brehm Vineyards frozen grapes. I’m looking to start one more wine in February. Probably a red. Either a Barolo or a Mourvedre (Mataro) or maybe a Shiraz (Syrah). If I get a lot of business in the next month or so, I might even buy some of the Brehm 1999 Mourvedre frozen grapes. Then, in March, I’m planning to get a 2000 Viognier kit. If you’ve seen my other posts, you’ve seen that I’m planning on planting either this spring or next. I’ll probably plant Viognier and Mourvedre initially. Also, I’m negotiating right now to get some relatively local Viognier and Mourvedre grapes this fall. <snip Have you ever considered buying just the concentrate, from a can? Or using imported fresh juice? That way you wouldn’t have all the extra stuff kicking around that you aren’t going to use! Cheers! Lisa
– Check out Rotten Grapes winemaking and viticulture bookmarks
Response:
Isn’t it nice to have this newsgroup? So many people with such diverse backgrounds! this Chardonay kit is my first attempt at winemaking. So, I guess you could say that I have always used kits this way, but that doesn’t say as much as it might first appear.
LOL! Good luck with the Chardonay. I’m sure it will be fabulous! As for how long I will age this wine, I will treat it much like I treat any wine I buy. I’ll let it age 3 to 6 months in the bottle before trying a sample bottle. At that point, I’ll decide what the potential is and I’ll figure out how long I’ll keep it<snip Of course, if the concentrate is of excellent quality, then you aren’t getting the full potential if you take all the shortcuts. It’s like the "roast beef dinner" analogy I posted way back at the beginning of this thread.
A good point! Using chemical shortcuts are great for the people like my friend’s neighbors: they want large quantites of half-decent CHEAP wine for quick consumption — they drink a lot of wine. So the short cuts suit their purpose just fine! I guess you could say I’m making wine from the concentrate in the kit, not a "kit wine" per se because I don’t follow all the directions in the kit.
Have you ever considered buying just the concentrate, from a can? Or using imported fresh juice? That way you wouldn’t have all the extra stuff kicking around that you aren’t going to use! Cheers! Lisa
Response:
First, I should confess. I don’t have a lot of first hand experience with winemaking yet. I’ve read a lot on the subject. I’ve been a passionate wine collector and wine drinker for over 12 years now. And during all that time, I’ve had an interest in how wines are made. I’ve read pretty extensively on the subject over that period. I’ve also made a few acquaintances and friendships with a few very good amateur and professional winemakers. However, this Chardonay kit is my first attempt at winemaking. So, I guess you could say that I have always used kits this way, but that doesn’t say as much as it might first appear. As for how long I will age this wine, I will treat it much like I treat any wine I buy. I’ll let it age 3 to 6 months in the bottle before trying a sample bottle. At that point, I’ll decide what the potential is and I’ll figure out how long I’ll keep it. With store bought wines, I tend to buy half cases or full cases. Actually, I buy two bottles each of six or so different wines and let them age for 90-120 days. Then I try them out and I go back and buy half cases or full cases of the one to three best wines in the group. Sometimes I don’t like any of them that much and I get another six samples. Once I have 6 to 12 bottles of a wine that I like, I’ll open a bottle every 12 to 18 months until I think the wine is near its peak, then serve it once every 4 to 6 months during what I think will be the peak years for that wine. I’ll probably do about the same with this wine, opening a bottle every 12 months or so until it seems near it’s peak, then one (or two or three if we have company) every 3 to 6 months around its peak. So, I’ll have a better answer in a few years. Knowing what I do about bentonite and the other fining agents that are included with most kits, I wouldn’t use any of them unless the wine really, really needs it. I simply can’t imagine putting bentonite in the water when reconstituting a concentrate for a red wine. With reds, you generally only get the color and skin contact that they gave you in the concentrate. Stripping any of that with bentonite seems like a bad idea. I can see where that might reduce the longevity and ageability of the resulting wine. Even in a white wine, I’d cold settle the juice from the concentrate and make 5 gallons from a 6 gallon kit if the reconstituted juice was too cloudy. Bentonite in the water to reconstitute the juice just doesn’t seem like a good way to start making a high quality wine. Isinglass, gelatin and chitosan can also precipitate acids and other compounds in addition to clearing the haziness or cloudiness of a developing young wine. Again, I can see where that might have an effect on longevity. Having said that, I think the biggest factor in how ageworthy a wine is is how good the grapes are. While it’s true that you can screw up good grapes, it’s also an unavoidable fact that if the grapes are bad, no amount of fiddling and fudging will make a blockbuster wine from them. In the case of kits, I’d change the wording from "grapes" to "concentrate," but the rest of the concepts are still the same. One of the winemaking shops I go to had a "party" for some of their regular customers recently. The owner brought several wines that she made from kits that they sell there, and many of the other attendees brought wines that they had made from kits. There’s a wide range of quality among the wine kits, and I think it had more to do with the kits themselves than the people making them. Most of these people followed the instructions religiously, but for the most part, the "higher end" kits definitely were better than the basic, inexpensive kits. I think with kits, the quality of the concentrate is probably more important than whether you use all the finings and preservatives. If the concentrate isn’t the best, taking the shortcuts probably isn’t the main reason that the wine doesn’t age. The shortcuts don’t help, but the problem is the base concentrate, not the shortcuts. Actually, if the juice concentrate in this kit had been lacking in flavors, I might have considered just taking the shortcuts and getting my 30 bottles of so-so wine as quickly as possible. Of course, if the concentrate is of excellent quality, then you aren’t getting the full potential if you take all the shortcuts. It’s like the "roast beef dinner" analogy I posted way back at the beginning of this thread. I guess you could say I’m making wine from the concentrate in the kit, not a "kit wine" per se because I don’t follow all the directions in the kit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rottengrapes, Thanks for sharing your process. Do you/have you always use kits in this way? How long will you bottle age/store a batch made from this method? The talk on this list is that the chemical shortcuts prescribed by kit methods will put a damper on aging a kit wine. Am I correct in saying that by not taking the chemical shortcuts you are effectively not making a "kit" wine, but rather using the concentrate and yeast that came as part of a kit?? Lisa All I have to do to avoid all this stuff is take 6 months or more to finish a 28 day kit. Of course, the finished product is much better than the 28 day product would have been.
– Check out Rotten Grapes winemaking and viticulture bookmarks
Response:
I would like to know how you manage the kits without the shortcuts additives…would it be possible to post your secrets ? -Dan chemical shortcuts. I’ve got a 28 day Chardonay kit that I started in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – October of last year and I’m not going to bottle it until March or April at the earliest, maybe even later. I probably won’t be serving the first bottle of this wine until some time next year. It’s still fermenting slowly at 50 degrees F (instead of the 65-75 that the directions recommended) and the flavor development is excellent.
Response:
There is no "secret" to it. Just a lot of time. Here’s a brief summary of my Chardonay kit so far, and my plans for finishing it. 10-20-2000 reconstituted the juice with water only (boiled and cooled). Made 5 US gallons plus 2 liters instead of the 6 US gallons the kit called for. pitched yeast. (skipped bentonite and oak tea bag thing). Placed in cool basement (55-60F) instead of 65-70F room as instructions called for. 11-2-2000 racked off lees to a fresh carboy and a magnum bottle. Kept in cool basement (50-55F). If I had it to do again, I’d wait another week or two before the first racking. 12-7-2000 racked off lees to a fresh carboy, a 750ml bottle and a 375ml bottle. added home made oak chips and yeast nutrient (was worried about sticking fermentation). Kept in cool basement (50-55F). Fermentation continued. 1-18-2001 Fermentation stopped, wine pretty clear. racked off oak and lees to a fresh carboy and a 375ml bottle. S.G. 0.993, residual sugar 405mg/dl (0.405%). Added 1 1/2 campden tablets to adjust SO2. Moved to cool room (55F nights, 60-65F days). Fermentation continued. I’m expecting that in one to two weeks the fermentation will finish. Then, I’ll rack it to a clean carboy and put it back in the cold basement (50F) for 2 to 3 more months. If it isn’t brilliantly clear, I’ll rack it very carefully and let it bulk age for another 2 to 3 months. I’ll keep racking and aging until it’s brilliantly clear. Actually, if it doesn’t clear in 6 to 9 months, I might use either the bentonite or isinglass, but the way it looks now, I think it will be clear in 3 to 4 months. Then, I’ll cold stabilize it for 2 to 3 weeks at 27-30F. After that, I’ll rack it off the lees and tartrates. I’ll check pH and TA and adjust SO2 to the proper level. At that point, I’ll bottle it. Here’s what came with the kit, when the directions said to use it and what I will do with it. Concentrate (day 1) – reconstituted with water only Bentonite packet (day 1) – not used (assuming that the wine clears properly). Oak dust tea bag (day 1) – Used on day 48. Actually, I used home made oak chips instead. Isinglass (day 19-22) – not used (assuming that the wine clears properly). Potassium Sorbate (day 19-22) – not used because I fermented to dryness. Potassium Metabisulfite (day 19-22) – I’ll probably use less than the full packet, even though I’ve checked and adjusted SO2 on several occasions and I’ll check and adjust it again several times before bottling. All I have to do to avoid all this stuff is take 6 months or more to finish a 28 day kit. Of course, the finished product is much better than the 28 day product would have been. If I do another one of this kit, I’ll probably cold clarify the reconstituted juice before pitching the yeast. Also, I’ll wait until the wine has fermented dry before oaking. The fruit flavors were excellent and a lightly oaked or even no oaked version might be excellent. I think it would be like a real, genuine Chablis. I would like to know how you manage the kits without the shortcuts additives…would it be possible to post your secrets ? -Dan chemical shortcuts. I’ve got a 28 day Chardonay kit that I started in October of last year and I’m not going to bottle it until March or April at the earliest, maybe even later. I probably won’t be serving the first bottle of this wine until some time next year. It’s still fermenting slowly at 50 degrees F (instead of the 65-75 that the directions recommended) and the flavor development is excellent.
– Check out Rotten Grapes winemaking and viticulture bookmarks
Response:
Here is a simple recipe for 30 day wine. Many old hillbillies here in Tennessee still use this one, and wouldn’t have it any other way. They don’t want any Cabernet, Merlot, or Champagne, this is Tennessee, not France. Back during my teens I used to make this, but now grow my own grapes and pick fruits in the wild. Simple, easy recipe: 24 oz Welch’s frozen concentrated grape juice, thawed. 3 cups Sugar 1/4 tsp Dry Yeast 1-1 gallon glass jug. Mix all ingredients together well with water filling jug to about an inch below the shoulders. Cover with a clean rag secured with rubber band. Keep in a dark place about 70 degrees. About 2 weeks later replace rag with a good thick piece of plastic wrap. After 30 days from starting date, siphon wine off from sediment in bottom and drink. For a good old "Mad Dog 20/20" type wine, add a pint of cheap blackberry brandy to the mix before drinking. SouthernWine
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The following is a recipe for wine used at communion at a Lutheran church in Claremont, NC. 1 gallon of pulp add 1 quart of lukewarm water blend let work for 9 days stir every other day then strain add 4 lbs. of sugar to the gallon (4cups of sugar = 2 lbs.) let work for 9 more days stir every other day strain ready to serve. This wine would not sell for $800 per bottle, but it is good.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wanted:Easy 30 day recipe for grape wine..I know there is one because I’ve heard of it….I just can’t remember it ……I appreciate any help.. Wine Forever
Response:
Wanted:Easy 30 day recipe for grape wine..I know there is one because I’ve heard of it….I just can’t remember it ……I appreciate any help.. Wine Forever
Response:
If you need some wine in a hurry, go to your local homebrew/winemaking shop and buy a 28 day kit. Follow the instructions (paying particular attention to temperatures) and you’ll have wine in 28 days or so. If you’ve gone to the trouble to grow or buy good wine grapes, I suggest you might want to extend your deadline a bit. Actually, quite a bit. Good wine takes time to develop. The best wines can take years. Even the 28 day kit wines can be improved greatly by lowering the temperatures and extending the time, and leaving out some of the chemical shortcuts. I’ve got a 28 day Chardonay kit that I started in October of last year and I’m not going to bottle it until March or April at the earliest, maybe even later. I probably won’t be serving the first bottle of this wine until some time next year. It’s still fermenting slowly at 50 degrees F (instead of the 65-75 that the directions recommended) and the flavor development is excellent. As an analogy, let’s say you have a 5 lb beef rib roast. If you want dinner for 6. In less than an hour, you could slice the roast into 6 slices, put each slice on a plate with a potato and microwave it for 8 or 9 minutes, then put the plate in your oven on its lowest (warm) setting. In 48-54 minutes, you have "roast beef" and "baked potato" for 6. It won’t be very good, but it will be done in an hour. Of course, you’ve wasted a good piece of meat that could have been excellent if you slow roasted it for several hours in a very slow oven and made some really good gourmet side dishes during the time it was roasting. Trying to get wine from grapes in 30 days is like trying to get the prime rib dinner in one hour. Wanted:Easy 30 day recipe for grape wine..I know there is one because I’ve heard of it….I just can’t remember it ……I appreciate any help.. Wine Forever
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