Question:
Steve, et. al., the best thing about Jack’s posts is that they really emphasize a key difference between rec.crafts.winemaking and many other news groups, namely, the people here are genuinely nice. Just goes to show there is usually something good to be found in everything. Kirk
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -There is at least one person’s game that I will no longer play. I went back and re-read every post I could find sent by "Jack Webb," and with a single exception (your first post as far as I can tell), every post has been a rude, off topic comment in response to another persons post. I did the same about 10 days ago and came to the same conclusion. In fact I pondered whether "Jack Webb" wasn’t a person at all, but rather some twisted program scanning this newsgroup for messages from "nightrunner" or "zinful" and then randomly selected obnoxious phrases from a very short list and posting them back to the NG as replies. Perhaps we should all send Jack some "ILOVEYOU" emails, give him the warm and fuzzies and maybe all that pent up bile will be neutralized. Better yet maybe if we ignore him, he’ll just go away. ss * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of the points you made I can agree with. Wine is fun and can be shared <snip You should have stopped right there! The anger and ill manners displayed in your posts would be more appropriate in a Marylin Manson newsgroup than here, in nominally _civilized_ territory. If you haven’t had anything to drink, go have a brewski and chill out. If you already have, I’d say you’re probably one of those people who _shouldn’t_ drink!
Agreed. I killfiled Jack Webb three months ago and have since then been blissfully undisturbed by his immature behavior. I wasn’t even aware that he was still posting to his NG. After seeing your post, I visited deja.com to see what the fuss was about, thus confirming the wisdom of my decision to killfile him. A Win9x-compatible newsreader which supports killfiles, News XPress, is available for download at http://www.malch.com/nxfaq.html (I use this one, and recommend it). — dlmiller/at/netdirect/dot/net
Response:
Some of the points you made I can agree with. Wine is fun and can be shared <snip
You should have stopped right there! The anger and ill manners displayed in your posts would be more appropriate in a Marylin Manson newsgroup than here, in nominally _civilized_ territory. If you haven’t had anything to drink, go have a brewski and chill out. If you already have, I’d say you’re probably one of those people who _shouldn’t_ drink! I still say that most of the postings to this NG are silly <snip
Yeah, so what’s your point? We aren’t a bunch of experts in an ivory tower, splitting hairs over subtle nuances among Burgundian clones or oak forests. We are a motley crew, with varying degrees of experience and committment to the art of winemaking. Just what do you expect from a Gaussian distribution of participants? If you find this NG too banal for your taste, go start your own – preferably on a different server! Tom S
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some of the points you made I can agree with. Wine is fun and can be shared <snip You should have stopped right there! The anger and ill manners displayed in your posts would be more appropriate in a Marylin Manson newsgroup than here, in nominally _civilized_ territory. If you haven’t had anything to drink, go have a brewski and chill out. If you already have, I’d say you’re probably one of those people who _shouldn’t_ drink! I still say that most of the postings to this NG are silly <snip Yeah, so what’s your point? We aren’t a bunch of experts in an ivory tower, splitting hairs over subtle nuances among Burgundian clones or oak forests. We are a motley crew, with varying degrees of experience and committment to the art of winemaking. Just what do you expect from a Gaussian distribution of participants? If you find this NG too banal for your taste, go start your own – preferably on a different server! Tom S You are right on the nail Tom.
JACK- either chill out or piss off from this NG!!! Before you buy.
Response:
There is at least one person’s game that I will no longer play. I went back and re-read every post I could find sent by "Jack Webb," and with a single exception (your first post as far as I can tell), every post has been a rude, off topic comment in response to another persons post.
I did the same about 10 days ago and came to the same conclusion. In fact I pondered whether "Jack Webb" wasn’t a person at all, but rather some twisted program scanning this newsgroup for messages from "nightrunner" or "zinful" and then randomly selected obnoxious phrases from a very short list and posting them back to the NG as replies. Perhaps we should all send Jack some "ILOVEYOU" emails, give him the warm and fuzzies and maybe all that pent up bile will be neutralized. Better yet maybe if we ignore him, he’ll just go away. ss * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
Response:
I still say that most of the postings to this NG are silly, witness the plea for "where can I find split bottles"! Two of you responded!
I checked with the three local homebrew shops that I have available to me. Yes, I could search the Net and located them, but why reinvent the wheel when I can ask here and get recommendations based on personal experience? How many dandelion petals make a gallon of wine? Nit-pickers by the drove responded! Wine is fun, and it doesn’t have to be technical to be good. When and how much bentonite to add bordered on the eccentric.
If someone chooses to explore the subtle nuances of improving the taste of a given wine and it makes them happy to do so, what do you care? Most of the basic research on winemaking has already been done. From here on out, advancement of the art is found in the subtleties. These "newbies" that flagellate themselves in order to be accepted by the group bother me the most. They’re the ones I was referring to when I said they genuflect. ""Aye, where to start?! I just picked up a copy of Jeff Cox’s "From Vines to Wines", and I just skimmed SchlossGoist’s FAQ."" Come on…… with that knowledge he had his starting point, he was just playing around or kissing ass.
What you refer to as "flagellation", "genuflection", and "kissing ass", most of us consider simple (notice I didn’t say "common") courtesy, and much preferred to tantrums, ranting, swearing, and insults. So I guess it comes down to this. Do you respond to guys like that because it makes you feel important, or are you buying into his game?
Again, what does it matter to you? Why should they rationalize their motivations to you or anyone else? It’s like sex; as long as it’s consensual and enjoyed by both parties, who cares what the underlying motivation is? You’ve burned up quite a bit of bandwidth telling us what you *don’t* like/want, but I still haven’t heard you say what it is that you *do* want. You don’t want newbies asking "silly" questions. So what constitutes a "non-silly" question? How do newbies become experienced without asking questions? Are you advocating that we go out and make every mistake there is to be made rather than rely upon the experience of others to avoid those mistakes? What’s the point of joining the NG in the first place? If newbies can’t ask the questions pertinent to *their* level of knowledge and experience, who’s going to ask the questions? The experienced professionals? They already have the answers. You don’t consider newbies, regardless of the personal reading and research they’ve done, as credible to post responses. How much experience is "enough" before being deemed credible? Do you fit your own criteria of credibility? At the same time, you don’t want to hear technicalities from the professionals either. That doesn’t leave much to discuss now does it? What is it that you do want from them then? What is it that you think this NG is for? What is it that *you* get or expect to get from the NG? If the message content is so repugnant to you, why do you stay? Do you really think that the approach you’ve taken is likely to persuade anyone over to your way of thinking, even if they could figure out what that was? So many questions; so few rational answers.
Response:
You know, everyone can disagree with a parsed line……but you may have found something to agree with also……because you didn’t disagree with everything. <snip
It would be hard to agree or disagree with a great deal of your original post Jack, it was rambling mass of tangled reasoning and contradictory rationalizations. I still say that most of the postings to this NG are silly, witness the plea for "where can I find split bottles"! Two of you responded!
And your point is? On the one hand you complain that the discussion of technical matters is pointless – nothing more than "the proffesors," and "favored particiapants" showing off, or indulging in esotreic nonsense – and on the other hand, you complain that the non-technical questions are inane to the point of obsurdity. In other words, every possible post in this news group is a target for your rebukes. Wine is fun, and it doesn’t have to be technical to be good. When and how much bentonite to add bordered on the eccentric.
This is a news group dedicated to making wine, which, in many cases, requires the application of technical knowledge and process. If you don’t care about the technical aspects of the subject, simply don’t participate in those discussions. Believing that you can convince all the participants in this news group to only post articles in which you personally (Jack Webb) find merit is fruitless; and to continue the attempt demonstrates ignorance of human nature, or a specific desire to agitate (perhaps there is some other reason I have missed). <snip So I guess it comes down to this. Do you respond to guys like that because it makes you feel important, or are you buying into his game?
There is at least one person’s game that I will no longer play. I went back and re-read every post I could find sent by "Jack Webb," and with a single exception (your first post as far as I can tell), every post has been a rude, off topic comment in response to another persons post. Whatever your motivations, you do not seems to want to discuss "winemaking," which is the foundation of this forum. Based on this I see no further need to correspond with you. Kirk
Response:
You know, everyone can disagree with a parsed line……but you may have found something to agree with also……because you didn’t disagree with everything. Some of the points you made I can agree with. Wine is fun and can be shared as long as the discerning nose, chemist, analyst etc kinda keeps it to himself and doesn’t try to tell me he/she can taste or smell poison ivy in pumpkin wine from the vintage year of 1912 made during the month of August under a full moon topped off with coyote urine. I still say that most of the postings to this NG are silly, witness the plea for "where can I find split bottles"! Two of you responded! How many dandelion petals make a gallon of wine? Nit-pickers by the drove responded! two weeks notice prior to moving? And this group responded. Wine is fun, and it doesn’t have to be technical to be good. When and how much bentonite to add bordered on the eccentric. These "newbies" that flagellate themselves in order to be accepted by the group bother me the most. They’re the ones I was referring to when I said they genuflect. ""Aye, where to start?! I just picked up a copy of Jeff Cox’s "From Vines to Wines", and I just skimmed SchlossGoist’s FAQ."" Come on…… with that knowledge he had his starting point, he was just playing around or kissing ass. So I guess it comes down to this. Do you respond to guys like that because it makes you feel important, or are you buying into his game?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …snip… Everyone seems to be TOO "mannerly" and "respectful" of each other. …snip… I’m very tired of hearing from the "Gentlelady" or "Gentleman" from wherever. …snip… Hi Jack: I am somewhat confused by this assertion. Exactly how is it possible for someone to be "too mannerly" or "too respectful"? IMO, one of the greatest things about wine making, as well as about wine appreciation in general, is the fact that the "culture of wine" tends to promote remarkably civil behavior. Of course, those who love wine can be passionate & hold strong beliefs. They can also be head strong, even arrogant, and can disagree with one another with extreme prejudice. However, I believe that you will find that almost to a person, wine lovers are individuals with decorum, class, social grace & excellent manners. I am always amazed by the degree of civility and cooperation among wine winemakers & wine lovers. As a matter of fact, I will go so far as to say that the civil exchange of ideas and beliefs among wine people is unprecedented. Consider the following: -I have sat next to internationally recognized experts (Pascal Durand from the University of Bourgogne, & Australian Viticulture consultant Richard Smart, for example) at Seminar banquets & have had, during casual conversations, these individuals show a legitimate interest in my backyard winegrowing and my basement wine making concerns. It is basically impossible to find such "class-less" behavior in _ANY_ other disciplines. -This very newsgroup is frequented by many professional _experts_ who willingly, and without delay impart invaluable advice, FREE, to those of us who need their help. For example, I will never forget asking several questions, a few years back, about techniques for making a dry Riesling & having Peter Jordan reply to my questions. I was so impressed by Peter’s advice that I went to his web site, expecting to find a home winemaking site. Needless to say, I felt remarkably fortunate and overwhelmed when I read on Peter’s commercial site (http://www.saarwein.com) that his Family’s Estate has been making Award (as in International) winning Riesling since 1743. Clearly, this level of fraternity and sharing of ideas in simply unprecedented in today’s world. And when it come to this NG, this type of sharing just doesn’t stop with Peter Jordan. Consider the information, knowledge & experience brought to the table by people like Don, Lum, TomS, David, Clyde, Jack K, Ed K, Kirk, Dan, Joe S, Jeff J & so many others. It is indeed RARE to find people of such expertise who are also willing to share their invaluable knowledge & experience. -And finally, consider the remarkable free resources (web pages) offered by people like Lum & Jack. These sites aren’t commercial sites, but have been created by their expert owners out of a sheer love for wine & for passing along information about the wonderful world of winemaking. Why is this? Why is there such a remarkably civil & class-less culture of fraternity surrounding wine? My guess is that wine naturally instills highly cultured behavior in humans because it is the thing in human history which most specifically defines the onset of human civility. The start of viticulture marks the moment when we became "civilized". Just like us…The vines came down from the trees. They offered us their gift & they taught us how to be civilized. In closing, if you are looking for a group of individuals who are ill mannered & disrespectful you should not need to look very long in today’s world. However, I am afraid that you will need to look elsewhere. Thanks: Ed — The Viticulture FAQ & Glossary – http://www.itsmysite.com/vitfaq "I like on the table, when we’re speaking, The light of a bottle of intelligent wine." -Pablo Neruda Before you buy.
Response:
4 things: 1. I am here to learn, you can call it lurking, stalking, or trolling if you like. I just don’t have anything to contribute to the NG yet. I’m here to learn and BTW I don’t consider stupid or repetitive questions (which I see too much of) a viable way to gain the acceptance of this NG. I do not accept the knowledge of non-participants. I also do not express idolatry towards the professors, or tenured professionals of this group. They are the educated who have a responsibility to share their expertise with the lesser endowed, one of whom I freely admit to be. 2. So anyway, based on last nights postings from ZINFUL and NIGHTRUNNER, I’m defending myself too! So, what great gifts of wisdom do you have to offer? Like, uh, opposing views are not appreciated??? Like uh, you don’t enjoy a little turmoil in your life? Why does everything have to be so regimented? So regulated? So apologetic? So accepted at face value? Zinful is doing what I’m doing, he’s causing you to consider your options, your views. But the taking of sides is WRONG, that’s what starts WARS! I want you to disagree with me, I want you to disagree with ZINFUL. I find too little disagreement in this NG! Very few of you are right all of the time, and you deserve to be rebuked, or at least challenged. How many nuclear power plants were built because the educated persuaded the rest that it was the correct thing to do. How many pipelines have been built over questionable terrain because we’ve been "educated" to believe in the Profs? Everyone seems to be TOO "mannerly" and "respectful" of each other. Tell it like it is without all the niceties! I’m very tired of hearing from the "Gentlelady" or "Gentleman" from wherever. If you have a better idea, support it! Stand beside it! Prove it’s merits! Prove it’s value! Fight for what you believe in! Just don’t try to give me book knowledge. I can get that for myself, I want the practical knowledge of winemakers who have "walked the walk and talked the talk" / "been there, done that" (to put it into terms that most of you will understand). And believe it or not, you can tell who the bull-shitters are! They’re usually the ones who figuratively bow or genuflect to the recipient of their posting. 3. Dandelion Wine is one of my Mothers favorites, but if I told her she had to pull the petals off the flowers…….oh well, I won’t get into that. It seems to me that that sort of thing belongs to the purists, not the people who just enjoy a good glass of wine made with love and care. 4. You civics majors live in the Bill Clinton world of righteousness! Apologies will not be accepted! 4+. And thanks for the opportunity to reject the accepted viewpoint of a favoured participant. My final parting thought is of course, to consider all possible viewpoints, not to get caught up in the heat of the moment as some of you have, blindly defending that which you knew not. And finally, consider this, that kiddy porn aficionados are usually caught by people who never shared their viewpoints, but only indulged them to make them feel important and accepted. Thanks in advance, Jack Webb
Response:
…snip… Everyone seems to be TOO "mannerly" and "respectful" of each other. …snip… I’m very tired of hearing from the "Gentlelady" or "Gentleman" from wherever. …snip…
Hi Jack: I am somewhat confused by this assertion. Exactly how is it possible for someone to be "too mannerly" or "too respectful"? IMO, one of the greatest things about wine making, as well as about wine appreciation in general, is the fact that the "culture of wine" tends to promote remarkably civil behavior. Of course, those who love wine can be passionate & hold strong beliefs. They can also be head strong, even arrogant, and can disagree with one another with extreme prejudice. However, I believe that you will find that almost to a person, wine lovers are individuals with decorum, class, social grace & excellent manners. I am always amazed by the degree of civility and cooperation among wine winemakers & wine lovers. As a matter of fact, I will go so far as to say that the civil exchange of ideas and beliefs among wine people is unprecedented. Consider the following: -I have sat next to internationally recognized experts (Pascal Durand from the University of Bourgogne, & Australian Viticulture consultant Richard Smart, for example) at Seminar banquets & have had, during casual conversations, these individuals show a legitimate interest in my backyard winegrowing and my basement wine making concerns. It is basically impossible to find such "class-less" behavior in _ANY_ other disciplines. -This very newsgroup is frequented by many professional _experts_ who willingly, and without delay impart invaluable advice, FREE, to those of us who need their help. For example, I will never forget asking several questions, a few years back, about techniques for making a dry Riesling & having Peter Jordan reply to my questions. I was so impressed by Peter
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