Winery Wiki

Question:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to get input on aging beer in a wood cask or barrel?  Is this done in Europe but not in the US?  What about homebrewing? What’s needed to do it?  What size casks or barrels are used and which wood: Oak or chestnut? Thanks, Largo Fermenting in wood would result in all sorts of problems with infection. Fermenting in wood lined with pitch would be no different than fermenting in plastic (or any other material) lined with pitch. It’s really not worth the trouble, unless you’re dealing with the small subset of styles in which a controlled infection is ok. If you want a wood flavor, add some wood chips or cubes (which are easy to Does the same hold true for secondary fermentation?  Do a primary fermentation in glass, then the secondary in wood.  I would think the higher alcohol content would make infection less likely.  Similar to making wine, you age in barrels, not ferment in barrels. There is a brewery in Berkeley called Triple Rock, they usually have 2 cask conditioned beer on tap.  You can even taste the cask conditioned side by side with the kegged beer.  I’ll have to ask them next time I’m there how they sanitize their casks.

Are you sure they use wooden casks? Most pubs in the Bay Area serve cask conditioned ales, but wooden casks are typically not used.

Response:

There is a brewery in Berkeley called Triple Rock, they usually have 2 cask conditioned beer on tap.  You can even taste the cask conditioned side by side with the kegged beer.  I’ll have to ask them next time I’m there how they sanitize their casks.

Commercial casks are stainless steel. Historically, they were wood, but modern casks are not. Cask conditioning refers to a process of serving the beer from a fermentation vessel. Casks are sealed with spiles (wood, but never in contact with the beer) that allow for a limited venting of gases during secondary (or teritary) fermentation. A cask conditioned beer will taste quite different than a kegged beer, but not because of contact with wood. Besides the smaller amount of carbination, there is a different flavor probably from the small amount of oxidation through the wood.

Because of the pressure within the cask and the fact that fermentation is still occuring when the cask is placed in its serving position there is no oxidation of a cask conditioned ale until it is served. Once the cask is opened and beer is drawn off, air gets drawn into the vessel (if it is served without a CO2 rebreather) and oxidation occurs. This does not have a noticable effect until a couple days go by (at which point, many people consider it to be at its peak). After a few more days the oxidation becomes deleterious to the beer flavor. Trevor

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to get input on aging beer in a wood cask or barrel?  Is this done in Europe but not in the US?  What about homebrewing? What’s needed to do it?  What size casks or barrels are used and which wood: Oak or chestnut? Thanks, Largo Fermenting in wood would result in all sorts of problems with infection. Fermenting in wood lined with pitch would be no different than fermenting in plastic (or any other material) lined with pitch. It’s really not worth the trouble, unless you’re dealing with the small subset of styles in which a controlled infection is ok. If you want a wood flavor, add some wood chips or cubes (which are easy to

Does the same hold true for secondary fermentation?  Do a primary fermentation in glass, then the secondary in wood.  I would think the higher alcohol content would make infection less likely.  Similar to making wine, you age in barrels, not ferment in barrels. There is a brewery in Berkeley called Triple Rock, they usually have 2 cask conditioned beer on tap.  You can even taste the cask conditioned side by side with the kegged beer.  I’ll have to ask them next time I’m there how they sanitize their casks. There is definitely a different texture to cask conditioned beers that goes beyond what wood ships will do for you.  Besides the smaller amount of carbination, there is a different flavor probably from the small amount of oxidation through the wood. Just my thoughts, not an expert. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sanitize) to the fermenter, and if you want a cask-like serving vessel, get a firkin or something similar. -Kevin

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I’d like to get input on aging beer in a wood cask or barrel?  Is this done in Europe but not in the US?  What about homebrewing? What’s needed to do it?  What size casks or barrels are used and which wood: Oak or chestnut? Thanks, Largo

Fermenting in wood would result in all sorts of problems with infection. Fermenting in wood lined with pitch would be no different than fermenting in plastic (or any other material) lined with pitch. It’s really not worth the trouble, unless you’re dealing with the small subset of styles in which a controlled infection is ok. If you want a wood flavor, add some wood chips or cubes (which are easy to sanitize) to the fermenter, and if you want a cask-like serving vessel, get a firkin or something similar. -Kevin

Response:

I’d like to get input on aging beer in a wood cask or barrel?  Is this done in Europe but not in the US?  What about homebrewing? What’s needed to do it?  What size casks or barrels are used and which wood: Oak or chestnut? Thanks, Largo

Response:

A very involved question. I suppose that the use of wooden casks began because there was nothing else that would do at the time.I well remember the time when almost all beer was transported in wood. The casks would be rolled and even bounced into the cellars.You can’t bounce a stainless steel cask like that ! The preferred medium is oak. I am not sure why – maybe availability or because of the physical charecteristic of the wood. It takes a very skilled craftsman to make a watertight container out of wood. I understand the inside was coated with pitch .There are still a couple of UK brewers using oak casks and one brewer is still producing them. Different sizes had different names. A 36 (UK) gallon cask was a barrel. An 18 gallon was an anker A 9 gallon was a firkin A 4 1/2 gallon was a pin. Also there were larger sizes but the names and capacities might have regional differences ; Holt’s of Manchester still uses hogsheads of 54 UK gallons and a puncheon was 72 gallons. The modern tendency is to use smaller casks for ease of handling and storage. Also in the old days a pub might only sell 2 brews and use barrels but nowadays sells a large range of ales from firkins. Some people swear by the use of wood , that it gives a superior product.Sam Smiths offer their Old Brewery Bitter in both wood and metal casks.But there are problems in hygeine and the risk of off tastes.And they are heavy brutes. A barrel of beer must weigh around a quarter of a ton.

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Thanks for your input.  I think you’re correct–sanitation may be difficult with a material like wood with tar pitch.  Glass carboys are ideal, easy to clean and maintain. I ask since seeing oak casks at http://www.brouwland.com under demijohns.  Maybe they’re for wine making. Largo – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A very involved question. I suppose that the use of wooden casks began because there was nothing else that would do at the time.I well remember the time when almost all beer was transported in wood. The casks would be rolled and even bounced into the cellars.You can’t bounce a stainless steel cask like that ! The preferred medium is oak. I am not sure why – maybe availability or because of the physical charecteristic of the wood. It takes a very skilled craftsman to make a watertight container out of wood. I understand the inside was coated with pitch .There are still a couple of UK brewers using oak casks and one brewer is still producing them. Different sizes had different names. A 36 (UK) gallon cask was a barrel. An 18 gallon was an anker A 9 gallon was a firkin A 4 1/2 gallon was a pin. Also there were larger sizes but the names and capacities might have regional differences ; Holt’s of Manchester still uses hogsheads of 54 UK gallons and a puncheon was 72 gallons. The modern tendency is to use smaller casks for ease of handling and storage. Also in the old days a pub might only sell 2 brews and use barrels but nowadays sells a large range of ales from firkins. Some people swear by the use of wood , that it gives a superior product.Sam Smiths offer their Old Brewery Bitter in both wood and metal casks.But there are problems in hygeine and the risk of off tastes.And they are heavy brutes. A barrel of beer must weigh around a quarter of a ton.

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Question:

I usually like to age my wine for at least 4-6 months and sometimes longer.  In the past, I have used glass carboys. I was wondering if the Cornelius kegs might be preferable since they would be sealed from air as well as from light.  In addition, they seem to be much easier to store in the back of a closet. Any thoughts on this or is there another way to bulk age of which I should be aware?

While most of my wine is aged in barrels, some of it has to be stored in smaller containers.  I’ve been using 15 gallon beer kegs, 5 gallon glass carboys, gallon jugs and liter bottles.  Over the past couple of years I’ve had _three_ carboys break, dumping their contents on the floor of the cellar.  From now on I’m using no more glass containers bigger than one gallon.  Stainless steel is *much* more durable and not as dangerous to handle. Tom S

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When you use kegs how much pressure do you use to seat the gaskets?  I don’t want to force carbonate, but what is safe for long-term aging? Thanks, Carter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -While most of my wine is aged in barrels, some of it has to be stored in smaller containers.  I’ve been using 15 gallon beer kegs, 5 gallon glass carboys, gallon jugs and liter bottles.  

Response:

I’m with Tom S  ….. but I, also, don’t use Korny Kegs for wine (jus beer :^), instead, I’ve got some 15gal "Golden Gate" style SST kegs with a "side" bung hole.  The breweries pound a wood bung in it .. I set them on their side with the hole up, and put in a rubber bung with an air lock fitted. Works Great! charlie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you use kegs how much pressure do you use to seat the gaskets?  I don’t want to force carbonate, but what is safe for long-term aging? Thanks, Carter While most of my wine is aged in barrels, some of it has to be stored in smaller containers.  I’ve been using 15 gallon beer kegs, 5 gallon glass carboys, gallon jugs and liter bottles.

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When you use kegs how much pressure do you use to seat the gaskets?

What gaskets?  I just use a #11 (if I remember correctly) white gum rubber stopper for a closure.  That’s after removing all the siphon tube assembly stuff, of course.  If I need to fill headspace for temporary "gas topped" storage, I use argon – not CO2 (which is wine soluble). Tom S

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I’m a fan of stainless steel kegs – surplus 15 gallon brewery kegs are about the biggest you can get at a decent price.  Corny kegs are probably ideal – my 15 gallon kegs are awfully heavy! Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I make a little beer from time to time and have recently purchased the equipment necessary to keg my beer in Cornelius kegs. I am so fond of these kegs and the way this is working out that I started thinking about them for my occasional wine making.  I usually like to age my wine for at least 4-6 months and sometimes longer.  In the past, I have used glass carboys. I was wondering if the Cornelius kegs might be preferable since they would be sealed from air as well as from light.  In addition, they seem to be much easier to store in the back of a closet. Any thoughts on this or is there another way to bulk age of which I should be aware? Thanks in advance… Carter

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How much pressure do you use to seat the gaskets? Thanks, Carter

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Tom .. you’re talking about a 15gal keg with a side bung hole, right?  I have never seen a Korny Keg with a "round" opening in the top .. they are all some sort of large oval, and they do, indeed, require a gasket to seal … or, maybe you have a trick to force a round cork into those oval openings??? charlie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you use kegs how much pressure do you use to seat the gaskets? What gaskets?  I just use a #11 (if I remember correctly) white gum rubber stopper for a closure.  That’s after removing all the siphon tube assembly stuff, of course.  If I need to fill headspace for temporary "gas topped" storage, I use argon – not CO2 (which is wine soluble). Tom S

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Tom .. you’re talking about a 15gal keg with a side bung hole, right?

No.  The opening is on the top center of the keg, which is a vertical cylinder with inset, domed ends.  The opening is about 2 inches diameter, and round.  Thye siphon assembly is sealed into the hole with an o-ring and held in place with a snap ring.  They also make a 7.5 gallon version of these, called a "pony keg", that is half the height. Tom S

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Ya’ll do realize that you’re talking about two different types of kegs don’t you? Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tom .. you’re talking about a 15gal keg with a side bung hole, right? No.  The opening is on the top center of the keg, which is a vertical cylinder with inset, domed ends.  The opening is about 2 inches diameter, and round.  Thye siphon assembly is sealed into the hole with an o-ring and held in place with a snap ring.  They also make a 7.5 gallon version of these, called a "pony keg", that is half the height. Tom S

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Ya’ll do realize that you’re talking about two different types of kegs don’t you?

_I_’all shore do!  :^D S moT

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Yah .. Tom is _not_ talking about a Cornelius (soda pop) keg, which is what the original poster asked about.  I believe Tom is referring to a "Sanke" style "beer" keg.  Most only have the one fitting on top.  For wine, I like the Golden Gate style, which is more of a barrel shape and has a side bung hole. But, whatever you can get _cheap_ is probably "best". BTW, the Cornelius kegs are "ideal" for beverages you are going to carbonate!  It is what they were designed for.  IMHO, they are more trouble that they are worth for still wine. charlie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ya’ll do realize that you’re talking about two different types of kegs don’t you? Bill Tom .. you’re talking about a 15gal keg with a side bung hole, right? No.  The opening is on the top center of the keg, which is a vertical cylinder with inset, domed ends.  The opening is about 2 inches diameter, and round.  Thye siphon assembly is sealed into the hole with an o-ring and held in place with a snap ring.  They also make a 7.5 gallon version of these, called a "pony keg", that is half the height. Tom S

Response:

Boy, Carter … you must not be reading this thread … every responder has recommended _other_ than Corny kegs I think! But, if you insist:  first, I think you would get a decent seal on the gasket by just snapping down the clip on the lid.  If you’re not comfortable with that, try keg lube on the gasket .. that should be air-tight.  If you’re not happy with _that_ .. pressurize the damn thing, but NOT with CO2! .. use argon or nitrogen.  If you use CO2, it WILL dissolve into your wine and the wine WILL be spritzy.  Also, if you do this .. and there is _residual_ CO2 in your wine when you pressurize it with another gas, I "think" the CO2 will stay in solution .. you will have to degas it before bottling! charlie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How much pressure do you use to seat the gaskets? Thanks, Carter

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Boy, Carter … you must not be reading this thread … every responder has recommended _other_ than Corny kegs I think!

Sorry, my news reader split the thread and I missed SEVERAL posts that I just went back and found after reading your message.   Yes, clearly there as a lot of good information that I missed.  And, yes, it does seem that I was rather thick-headedly trying to follow a procedure similar to the one I use for beer.  I always use gas to "pressure seat" the gasket and ensure an air-tight seal. BUT, I think I understand now.   Thanks, Carter

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So is it possible to bulk age in ‘corny’ kegs?  I didn’t see any definitive answer on this thread. If so, what are the procedures involved? -Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Boy, Carter … you must not be reading this thread … every responder has recommended _other_ than Corny kegs I think! Sorry, my news reader split the thread and I missed SEVERAL posts that I just went back and found after reading your message.   Yes, clearly there as a lot of good information that I missed.  And, yes, it does seem that I was rather thick-headedly trying to follow a procedure similar to the one I use for beer.  I always use gas to "pressure seat" the gasket and ensure an air-tight seal. BUT, I think I understand now.   Thanks, Carter

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About 10 psi from what I’ve read. You have to buy a nitrogen to co2 convertor for the gas lines. I haven’t started looking for all the equipment but I will soon. There’s an article on this in WineMaker magazine Spring 2001 issue. bill — …and today I am still just a bill. –Schoolhouse Rock

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I make a little beer from time to time and have recently purchased the equipment necessary to keg my beer in Cornelius kegs. I am so fond of these kegs and the way this is working out that I started thinking about them for my occasional wine making.  I usually like to age my wine for at least 4-6 months and sometimes longer.  In the past, I have used glass carboys. I was wondering if the Cornelius kegs might be preferable since they would be sealed from air as well as from light.  In addition, they seem to be much easier to store in the back of a closet. Any thoughts on this or is there another way to bulk age of which I should be aware? Thanks in advance… Carter

Response:

Good Luck … I think you are on the right track.  I think SST has a definite place in winemaking! charlie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boy, Carter … you must not be reading this thread … every responder has recommended _other_ than Corny kegs I think! Sorry, my news reader split the thread and I missed SEVERAL posts that I just went back and found after reading your message. Yes, clearly there as a lot of good information that I missed.  And, yes, it does seem that I was rather thick-headedly trying to follow a procedure similar to the one I use for beer.  I always use gas to "pressure seat" the gasket and ensure an air-tight seal. BUT, I think I understand now. Thanks, Carter

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Lum recently posted a link to an article about using argon (rather than nitrogen) to sparge tanks. I can’t find that article now. Lum, please post it again if you’re reading this! Here’s my 2 centavos on the Corny keg issue:  they’re great for wine! Not heavy when full and space-efficient. Thanks, Richard Dulany — Posted from exchange.co.el-paso.tx.us [168.58.201.213] via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

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I think you are referring to an article by Clark Smith.  Try here: http://vinovation.com/ArticleArgon.htm lum – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lum recently posted a link to an article about using argon (rather than nitrogen) to sparge tanks. I can’t find that article now. Lum, please post it again if you’re reading this! Here’s my 2 centavos on the Corny keg issue:  they’re great for wine! Not heavy when full and space-efficient. Thanks, Richard Dulany — Posted from exchange.co.el-paso.tx.us [168.58.201.213] via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

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Hi all, There should be no need to pressurize the Cornelius kegs when used with wine. You will have to ensure the O rings (rubber seals) are in good shape. There should by no evidence of cracking or dryness on the seals. Not just the seal on the lid but also the seals in the posts (connectors for gas and liquid out). Also, the strafes where these seals are going to seal have to be checked. No roughness should be felled with the nail of your finger on any sealing surface. Reassemble the keg with new seals if needed and check that it takes some effort to close the lid. Pressurize the keg with 3 to 5 psi pressure. leave the keg for a week or so and check, by opening the relief valve (the ring on the valve on the lid) if there is still pressure in the keg, if so you can use it for wine without pressure. This works well for aging between one to two years, after that, the wine starts to show oxidation problems. This is my experience with Cornelius kegs. I do not know why the wines after a year or two show oxidation signs. It could be deteriation of the O rings. Eddie V.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About 10 psi from what I’ve read. You have to buy a nitrogen to co2 convertor for the gas lines. I haven’t started looking for all the equipment but I will soon. There’s an article on this in WineMaker magazine Spring 2001 issue. bill — …and today I am still just a bill. –Schoolhouse Rock I make a little beer from time to time and have recently purchased the equipment necessary to keg my beer in Cornelius kegs. I am so fond of these kegs and the way this is working out that I started thinking about them for my occasional wine making.  I usually like to age my wine for at least 4-6 months and sometimes longer.  In the past, I have used glass carboys. I was wondering if the Cornelius kegs might be preferable since they would be sealed from air as well as from light.  In addition, they seem to be much easier to store in the back of a closet. Any thoughts on this or is there another way to bulk age of which I should be aware? Thanks in advance… Carter

Response:

I make a little beer from time to time and have recently purchased the equipment necessary to keg my beer in Cornelius kegs.   I am so fond of these kegs and the way this is working out that I started thinking about them for my occasional wine making.  I usually like to age my wine for at least 4-6 months and sometimes longer.  In the past, I have used glass carboys. I was wondering if the Cornelius kegs might be preferable since they would be sealed from air as well as from light.  In addition, they seem to be much easier to store in the back of a closet. Any thoughts on this or is there another way to bulk age of which I should be aware? Thanks in advance… Carter

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Question:

Or… you can calculatate it using a hydrometer at the beginning and at the end of the fermentation. -Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am a newbie at wine making so this may be a very simple question! Is there an easy way to find the percentage of alcohol in my wine? Thanks, Steve Hi Steve, The asnwer, I think, is sort of.  If your wine is absolutely dry, you can buy a little glass thing called a vinometer that will allow you to make a pretty good guess at the alcohol content of your wine.   If your wine isn’t dry, that won’t work.  There’s another method involving taking the specific gravity of a sample of the wine, boiling away half the volume (all the alcohol), adding back distilled water to the exact volume of the original sample, and finding the specific gravity of this new sample.  You can do some fairly simple math on the difference between the two specific gravities, and that will tell you the amount of alcohol.  I don’t know the exact formula, though. Alternatively, you can buy an ebulliometer for about $500 that will tell you accurately.  Or pay a lab to do it. Dave

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Us a vinometer.  You can get it at the brewery supply.  It is a glass tube calibrated.  You put the wine in the top, make sure it drips cleanly through the very skinny tube, then turn it upside down and it will show you the %. The drier the wine, the more accurate it is.  I use two of them and average the results.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am a newbie at wine making so this may be a very simple question! Is there an easy way to find the percentage of alcohol in my wine? Thanks, Steve

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Hi, I am a newbie at wine making so this may be a very simple question! Is there an easy way to find the percentage of alcohol in my wine? Thanks, Steve

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Hi, I am a newbie at wine making so this may be a very simple question! Is there an easy way to find the percentage of alcohol in my wine? Thanks, Steve

Hi Steve, The asnwer, I think, is sort of.  If your wine is absolutely dry, you can buy a little glass thing called a vinometer that will allow you to make a pretty good guess at the alcohol content of your wine.   If your wine isn’t dry, that won’t work.  There’s another method involving taking the specific gravity of a sample of the wine, boiling away half the volume (all the alcohol), adding back distilled water to the exact volume of the original sample, and finding the specific gravity of this new sample.  You can do some fairly simple math on the difference between the two specific gravities, and that will tell you the amount of alcohol.  I don’t know the exact formula, though. Alternatively, you can buy an ebulliometer for about $500 that will tell you accurately.  Or pay a lab to do it. Dave

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Thanks for all the replies. I’ll give them a try!

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Question:

Try McMaster-Carr. Tons ‘o stuff. www.mcmaster.com

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Could anyone give me a resource for stainless fittings that caters to the brewing or food service or wine-making industries?  Preferably one with an e-mail address?  I’m thinking about building a fermenting vessel and I can’t find what I need (sanitary valves and fittings) locally. TIA, Teddy Winstead Insomniac extrodinaire

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Could anyone give me a resource for stainless fittings that caters to the brewing or food service or wine-making industries?  Preferably one with an e-mail address?  I’m thinking about building a fermenting vessel and I can’t find what I need (sanitary valves and fittings) locally.

Moving Brews P.O. Box 474 College Park, MD 20740 (301) 779-8609 http://www.ays.net/movingbrews

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Could anyone give me a resource for stainless fittings that caters to the brewing or food service or wine-making industries?  Preferably one with an e-mail address?  I’m thinking about building a fermenting vessel and I can’t find what I need (sanitary valves and fittings) locally.

You don’t HAVE to use stainless, but I felt it was worth the extra scratch to go with all SS components. I got my stuff at McMaster Carr. Sorry, don’t have any contact info, but I’m pretty sure they have a web page. They only deal with businesses, so you’ll have to make up a name for your brewery and open an account under that name. Grainger would be the other place. SS is CONSIDERABLY more expensive so don’t get sticker shock when you find what your lookin’ for. Cheerio, JG — …The waiting is the hardest part… [Tom Petty]

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Could anyone give me a resource for stainless fittings that caters to the brewing or food service or wine-making industries?  Preferably one with an e-mail address?  I’m thinking about building a fermenting vessel and I can’t find what I need (sanitary valves and fittings) locally.

Goto Moving Brews….  http://www.ays.net/movingbrews/     Along with pumps, ball valves and kettles they offer a large selection of SS fittings, and very affordable I might add. No affiliation, just happy to share a great source. Cheers! Jeffrey D.

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Contact your local Parker Fitting representative. They carry a full line of Brass, Stainless and plastic fittings, for use in all industries. They are _not_ cheap. Could anyone give me a resource for stainless fittings that caters to the brewing or food service or wine-making industries?  Preferably one with an e-mail address?  I’m thinking about building a fermenting vessel and I can’t find what I need (sanitary valves and fittings) locally. TIA, Teddy Winstead Insomniac extrodinaire

– James Tomlinson Give a man a beer, and he wastes an hour. But teach a man how to brew, and he wastes a lifetime!

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Try Tri-Clover, Inc.   http://www.triclover.com.   They cater to the dairy, beer, and drug manuf. industries.

|Could anyone give me a resource for stainless fittings that caters to the |brewing or food service or wine-making industries?  Preferably one with |an e-mail address?  I’m thinking about building a fermenting vessel and I |can’t find what I need (sanitary valves and fittings) locally. | |Goto Moving Brews….  http://www.ays.net/movingbrews/ | |Along with pumps, ball valves and kettles they offer a large selection |of SS fittings, and very affordable I might add. | |No affiliation, just happy to share a great source. | |Cheers! | |Jeffrey D. |

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Hello, As I see many people in this newsgroup look for fittings and valves for brewery, I recommend you the following site which sells most of the products you need : http://www.defontaine.com/definox/default.asp Sebastien Baudry Could anyone give me a resource for stainless fittings that caters to the brewing or food service or wine-making industries?  Preferably one with an e-mail address?  I’m thinking about building a fermenting vessel and I can’t find what I need (sanitary valves and fittings) locally. TIA, Teddy Winstead Insomniac extrodinaire

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Question:

I am currently fermenting with American Ale 1056 and expect from my reading that it should survive to completion.  I expect to pitch some Pasteur Champagne yeast into at least one of the gallons to see if it fithe ferment once the 1056 gives up.  I’m a little concerned as to exactly how I should pitch additional yeast as I’m hesitant to throw a starter batch into a maturing brew.

Clif, Interesting that you should mention that, I have been having an e-mail discussion with someone else about Barleywines and my need on my latest batch to pitch Pasteur Champagne yeast. I originally planned to use Wyeast Scotch Ale (I forgot the number, maybe 1728?) but somehow killed it or underpitched it so much that I didn’t have any activity after about 8 hours (I usually have airlock activity within 3 hours). In a desperate attempt to save the batch, I pitched a package of dried Pasteur Champagne yeast (thinking it would survive the high gravity better than just dried Ale yeast) and it wound up very good (and dry). I would like to find out what it would have tasted like with the Scottish Ale yeast, but I was very happy with the Champagne yeast product. If you do divide up your batch into 1 gallon experimental batches, I would think that just a few grains of champagne yeast per gallon would be enough to get things started again. I wouldn’t mess with a starter batch since the volume of yeast in a starter would overwhelm a one gallon batch and you would run the risk of creating off flavors from overpitching. Good luck with your barleywine. Dan

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I am making my first barley wine. I have read references to rousing the yeast frequently.

Actually this is true. The more faithful to style commercial barleywines rouse their yeast by physically agitating the fermenter after signs of normal fermentation have stopped (no more or very rare bubbles). In olden days, when they were brewed in wooden casks, the casks were taken out of the cellar routinely and rolled around the brewery yard to rouse the yeast. Also some suggest repeated transfer to clean carboy.

This is typically (although sometimes incorrectly) referred to as a racking to a secondary. Because of the high alcohol content of barleywines the yeasts get exhausted and some die from alcohol poisoning, so at least once during fermentation (definately after visible signs of fermentation have ceased, you don’t want to unduly oxidize your barleywine), rack to a clean carboy. This gets the barleywine off the corpses of the dead yeast at the bottom of your primary carboy and prevents off flavors from the byproducts of the dead yeasts breaking down (the taste of which is often described as burnt rubber-like). Then there is the campden caps added to suppress infection, and months betweem rackings.

First time I’ve head about campden tablets and barleywine. Sounds like someone gave you information about wine rather than barleywine. Campden tablets are used in wine making to kill the yeast to prevent further fermentation in the bottle for "sweet" wines. Do not use campden tablets in barleywine if you want anything near drinkable with anything like natural carbonation. Is barley wine really this hard to make?

Not really, just get a good recipe, rouse the yeast occasionally and be patient. I am just now starting to dig into a barleywine that I started on 9/20/96 and it is pretty darn good if I may say so. Good luck and enjoy the fruits of your labours.

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Thank you for the reply to my barley wine questions. I don’t have any reason to think that there are any problems with the batch, but with the prospect of keeping this stuff in storage for years I have plenty of time to fret about it. I currently have a single 4 gal. batch about one week into ferment. I stripped out the pre sparge portion of a large mash and had to water it down to bring the og down to 1.10. I plan to distribute into one gallon reagent bottles for secondary so I have the chance to treat the splits in a variety of ways. I am currently fermenting with American Ale 1056 and expect from my reading that it should survive to completion.  I expect to pitch some Pasteur Champagne yeast into at least one of the gallons to see if it fithe ferment once the 1056 gives up.  I’m a little concerned as to exactly how I should pitch additional yeast as I’m hesitant to throw a starter batch into a maturing brew. Clif

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Campden tablets are used in wine making to kill the yeast to prevent further fermentation in the bottle for "sweet" wines. Do not use campden tablets in barleywine if you want anything near drinkable with anything like natural carbonation.

Camden tablets are just meta bisulphite in tablet form. Wine makers use 1/4 tsp of meta per 5 gallon batch at each racking to prevent oxidation not to kill yeast. You’d have to use a lot of meta to stop a ferment. I use meta at every racking and rack while still fermenting and the meat hasn’t stopped a ferment yet. Potassium sorbate is a yeast inhibator and is used when sweetening and will stop a feremnt…

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I am making my first barley wine. I have read references to rousing the yeast frequently. Also some suggest repeated transfer to clean carboy. Then there is the campden caps added to suppress infection, and months betweem rackings. Is barley wine really this hard to make? Any and all observations that may add to understanding these matters are appreciated. Clifton Moore or followup this post

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I am making my first barley wine. I have read references to rousing the yeast frequently.

Hever heard this. IMO, you’d only need to do this if you’re using a very flocculant, unattenuative yeast (which would be a bad idea for a barleywine anyhow). Also some suggest repeated transfer to clean carboy.

I haven’t heard this either. Then there is the campden caps added to suppress infection, and months betweem rackings.

Sounds like you’re talking about a mead, not a barleywine. If anything, barleywines should be *less* succeptible to infection than a normal beer, because of the high alcohol content, and (generally) high hop rate. Is barley wine really this hard to make?

I don’t *think* so. Granted, I’ve only brewed one barleywine so far, and that one is still bottle conditioning. However, it tasted *damn* good at bottling time, and has already fallen crystal clear in the bottles. (Been bottled about a month now; I plan to try one in another month or so.) Any and all observations that may add to understanding these matters are appreciated.

IMO, the only thing you really need to do different is make sure you use an attenuative, alcohol tolerant yeast, and pitch a *huge* starter. I did this by brewing a batch of English pale ale (Wyeast 1028 yeast), and brewing the barleywine the day I transferred the pale ale to secondary. I just racked the barleywine wort onto the primary sediment from the pale ale. Even with the huge amount of active yeast, fermentation took 2-3 times longer than with a "normal" batch of beer. When you get right down to it, a barleywine is basically just a double strength IPA… —

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Question:

I’m interested in this hobby, but have no idea what to do first.  Your suggestions would be very welcomed! Thank you!

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I’m interested in this hobby, but have no idea what to do first.  Your suggestions would be very welcomed!

http://www.pobox.com/~malak/kits http://www.pobox.com/rcw.faq Winemaking linx & FTP, rec.crafts.winemaking FAQ, Missing Link Rovers (Mtl Que Can), firstarter FAQ, Scouting FTP & Super Scout(er), Star Trek linx & FTP, Help Stop Spam, Zee Svedish Cheff, Summer Camp selection

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     Wine making can be very simple and can be very difficult if you try to make a certain kind of wine is when it becomes dificult. first thing is to read a good book on brewing and second is to go to a local brewery store and pick up a kit they can be any where from $30 to $100 it depends on what you want. good luck

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I’m interested in this hobby, but have no idea what to do first.  Your suggestions would be very welcomed! Thank you!

Visit your friendly neighbourhood Home Wine Brewer shop and start aking questions.  If they are like every other supplier, they will be pleased to help.

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Question:

Try Presque Isle Wine Cellars 9440 Buffalo Rd (US Rt 20) North East, PA  16428  USA Phone:  814-725-1314 (Information)         814-725-2092 (FAX)         800-488-7492 They have supplies (including yeast) and do sell some books as well.  I have bought from them and was always pleased. Wayne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups:    rec.crafts.winemaking,rec.food.drink,alt.food.wine I am new at wine making.  I would like to find a source for a yeast appropriate for wine making.  I am assuming normal baking yeast is not the best to be using.  I am located in North Carolina.  An east coast supplier would be preferred but not the limiting issue. Where can I find a list of kit suppliers? Where can I find a good source of reading / reference material on wine making?  My local library was a bust. Frank

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I am new at wine making.  I would like to find a source for a yeast appropriate for wine making.  I am assuming normal baking yeast is not the best to be using.  I am located in North Carolina.  An east coast supplier would be preferred but not the limiting issue. Where can I find a list of kit suppliers? Where can I find a good source of reading / reference material on wine making?  My local library was a bust. Frank

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: I am new at wine making.  I would like to find a source for a : yeast appropriate for wine making.  I am assuming normal baking : yeast is not the best to be using.  I am located in North : Carolina.  An east coast supplier would be preferred but not the : limiting issue. : : Where can I find a list of kit suppliers? : : Where can I find a good source of reading / reference material on : wine making?  My local library was a bust. There’s a large supplier list at the Brewery web server. You can access it at:   http://alpha.rollanet.org/infobase/supplierlist/SupplierList.html There are several places listed in North Carolina, but only one specifically has the word "wine" in it’s name (the others probably still serve winemakers as well as brewers). I know that this place has been around a while and has a good reputation among homebrewers. Give ‘em a call….they’re sure to have kits, yeast, and books to get you started in your new hobby. Home Beer & Wine Supply (aka Alternative Beverage) 114 Freeland Lane – Suite O Charlotte, NC 28217 704-527-BEER 800-365-BREW ORDER Hours: M-F 10:00-19:00;Sa 10:00-16:00 Alternate payment: Check/Money Order;Visa;MasterCard;American Express;Discover Owner: Phil Mathis (Manager) Other: Mail order. Free catalog. (No connection with above business…yadayadayada…) Cheers! —Mark   Brewery info server for homebrewers: <URL:http://alpha.rollanet.org/

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Question:

In your reply you refer to ‘protein hazes and heat haze’, DUH, what are they?

Protein hazes form, usually well after bottling and frequently after the wine has been stored in a place that is a bit too warm for wine storage.  Basically, the haze forms from agglomeration of the protein materials that are left in the wine.  This haze formation is typically irreversible.  The process is a  bit like cooking an eggwhite. To prevent protein haze formation, you need to remove the most of the protein. In a red wine, this occurs naturally by reaction with the tannin in the wine so *you* don’t have to do anything.  In a white or rose’wine you normally have very little tannin present so *you* need to do something to remove the protein.  The most common material used for the job is Bentonite.  Although the Bentonite will do some clarification, its main function is protein removal/stabilization.   Randy commented about Bentonite removing color from plum wine.  This is a very real problem with rose’ or blush wines which should normally be protein stabilized as they usually  do not have sufficient tannin from their brief skin contact to do the job by themselves.  You may want to overshoot a bit on your skin contact time and get a bit more intense color on this style of wine to offset the color removal by the Bentonite when you protein stabilize. — Scott Arighi Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

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In your reply you refer to ‘protein hazes and heat haze’, DUH, what are they? (As you could probably tell I’m really into serious winemaking, [I only use kits])

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What is Bentonite?

Bentonite is a finely powdered purified clay used as a fining (=clariifying) agent for wine.  When properly prepared with water and then mixed with the wine, it slowly settles to the bottom, bringing most particulates with it, and eliminating most causes of cloudiness in the wine.  Unlike the protein fining agents, it works without the participation of tannin, so It works well in white wine.  Severe over-application of bentonite can strip the wine of color and flavor, but at least a modest amount of clarification is usually necessary and beneficial in white wine. Unlike amateur filters, clarification by fining does not expose white wines to thei greatest enemy, oxygen.  Red wines only sometimes need clarification, and when clarification is necessary, traditional fining methods such as egg white work well. — Tel 1-(714)-489-8372, FAX 1-(714)-489-8379,

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: What is Bentonite? What purpose does it serve in wine-making? Is it : required at all? Bentonite is an aluminum silicate clay from Ft. Benton Montana. It’s used in winemaking as a clarifier. Is it required? Well, no. There are other ways to clarify a cloudy wine, or you could just decide that appearance doesn’t matter to you and maybe serve it in a coffee mug Cheers! —Mark   Brewery info server for homebrewers: <URL:http://alpha.rollanet.org/

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   What is Bentonite? What purpose does it serve in wine-making? Is it    required at all? Don Schiller writes:

   2) Used for fining to    remove particles and hazes from the wine.  Requires several hours before    adding for fining for the bentonite to rehydrate and disolve.  Is it required?         No, but it does help with protein hazes and heat haze.  If you don’t have a    haze problem, you probably won’t need bentonite. My $0.02 on bentonite.  I fined my plum wine with bentonite a few days ago.  Prior to fining the wine was pretty clear and quite light, when racking the wine it gave only a pink shade to the racking hose.  After fining and settling for a few days, I tell ya, there isn’t much color left. I can read small print through the 5-gallon glass carboy, which is a dark pink / light purple color.  The bentonite really drained a lot of color from the wine, maybe 40-50%. In retrospect the fining probably wasn’t necessary as the wine was pretty cler (not cloudy at all) beforehand.  However I am planning on sweetening the wine slightly when I bottle it so I wanted to fine it to get rid of as much yeast as possible (I definitely don’t want to filter at this point!), and was hoping to drink it fairly quickly. Hope this helps, — "Those that God wants to destroy he first makes mad."

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What is Bentonite? What purpose does it serve in wine-making? Is it required at all?

Bentonite is aluminum silicate clay.  Two uses in winemaking 1) a small amount is used early to work with the yeast.  I don’t fully understand it, but it is supposed to give the yeast something to hold on to during fermentation.   Not many winemakers use bentonite for this purpose.  2) Used for fining to remove particles and hazes from the wine.  Requires several hours before adding for fining for the bentonite to rehydrate and disolve.  Is it required?  No, but it does help with protein hazes and heat haze.  If you don’t have a haze problem, you probably won’t need bentonite. Don      *Just a hardware guy in a software world.* All above is my opinion, not the opinion of 3M Company.

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What is Bentonite? What purpose does it serve in wine-making? Is it required at all? Thanks. Brian.

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What is Bentonite?

       === Clay.  Simply clay.  When you blend it in hot water it makes mud. What purpose does it serve in wine-making?

       === It helps clear your wine. Is it required at all?

       === No. Brian, these are the short explanations, longer ones for which you might expect from others.  I’m running out of time…. DBG — David B. Gibson    | "The things we remember best are those Ottawa, Ontario    |  better forgotten" CANADA             |       … Gracian, "The Art of Worldly Wisdom".

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Question:

My best info is that flor forms best around 14.5%, while fortifying to 17% results in an oloroso.  The flor has sunk during each cold spell, then reformed as a fresh white layer, so I don’t think that it is just a phenolic scum.  Besides, it has a nice nutty aldehyde smell.  Wish me luck. — Warren Vidrine,  Vidrine Consulting Tel 1-(714)-489-8372, FAX 1-(714)-489-8379

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[plea to the English deleted] Besides, I could still use some help on my sherry, which is sitting there at 14.4% with a thin brownish scum (flor?).  At least it smells like sherry.

The alcohol is quite low for a sherry, and that may be part of your problem.  Sherries are a very delicate balance between being too alcoholic to grow flor and so unalcoholic as to not protect against other microorganisms.  I don’t have the numbers handy, but I believe the low end is around 17% (don’t quote me on that).  If I were you, I might venture to throw some more alcohol in there.  If anyone really cares, I will try to find it in my notes. The smell is acetaldehyde (characterized as "nutty" or "bruised apple"), and since it’s the oxidation product of ethanol, it can result from simple oxidation (that’s what they’re doing when they bake sherries) or flor. The brownish scum is probably partly due to oxidized phenols, which doesn’t really mean anything at all. I hope I’m not repeating what somebody else has told you in the past or you already know, but it sure looked like a query. Tamiko

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a country (England) with such a long tradition of making wine.

Actually, you’re being unfair.  The English have a very long tradition of making wine, about two millennia.  However, it is unfortunate that the interruptions in that tradition (due to bad weather, of course) have been so extensive. Cheers, Warren Vidrine (n

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Just wondering if there were any mail order brew supply companies out there? Any input would be greatly appreciated.  Phone number and address… Number perfered.  Thanks MIKE LOJAN                       –     THIS SPACE IS AVAILABLE U OF COL AT COLORADO SPRINGS     –     FOR ADVERTISEMENT                                  -     NOMINAL FEE

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: Just wondering if there were any mail order brew supply companies out there? : Any input would be greatly appreciated.  Phone number and address… : Number perfered.  Thanks A company I came accross in our local phone book has an 800 number:         Best Brew, Inc.         5262 Beach Blvd.         Jacksonville, Florida  32207-5035         1-800-780-2739  or      904-396-7666 I just got their "catalog" recently, and being newer than new at this  hobby, I have *no* idea how they rate. I guess I’ll find out this weekend when I head-out to a local brewing supply for my first homebrew kit.    :)’ "Well, what’s on the television then?" "Looks like a penguin."     – Monty Pythons Flying Circus

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Just wondering if there were any mail order brew supply companies out there? : Any input would be greatly appreciated.  Phone number and address… : Number perfered.  Thanks A company I came accross in our local phone book has an 800 number:        Best Brew, Inc.        5262 Beach Blvd.        Jacksonville, Florida  32207-5035        1-800-780-2739  or      904-396-7666 I just got their "catalog" recently, and being newer than new at this hobby, I have *no* idea how they rate. I guess I’ll find out this weekend when I head-out to a local brewing supply for my first homebrew kit.    :)’

I cannot recommend Best Brew as a good resource for brew supplies. They are expensive and provide inaccurate information (e.g., 3 oz whole hops = 1 oz pellets, and klages malt is not recommended for brewing). Two excellent Florida mail-order companies are: The Home Brewery, Brooksville, FL,  1-800-245-BREW  1-800-321-BREW (national #) Heart’s Home Beer & Wine Making Supply, Orlando FL, 1-800-392-8322 –Russ

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