Winery Wiki

Question:

Actually there are some great natural sweetners, a nice one to try in Cabernet and Shiraz (Syrah or Hermitage) is Stevia. It can have a natural tendency for a very slight aniseed taste which adds to the character of the wine, enhancing the natural liquorice presence typical of the varietal character. Many artificial sweetners can add a bitter or powdery flavour, but each to their own. Some wines that I have made using sugar as a sweetner have tasted very ordinary to me, but many of my friends have thought they were spectacular. It can be hard to accomodate individual taste preferences? Good if you can get your wine dry finished with very low residual sugar, having a nice balance of tannins and acid. Then sweeten to taste just before drinking if so desired! Sucrose, Glucose, acid, tannin, whatever – so long as you enjoy it. Cheers, Steve!

Response:

Keep sugar to a minimum. Special care should be taken to minimize the intake of sugar such as glucose, sucrose, dextrose, high fructose corn syrup, malt syrup, as well as sugar. Sugar provides calories, and calories only. There are no nutrients to speak of at all, which is why sugar (and alcohol for that matter) is called an "empty-calorie" food – empty, that is of any vitamins or minerals, or phytonutrients. Excessive sugar is a negative fountain of youth. Reduction of sugar in the diet will reduce cortisol (the "bad" hormone) levels in your body. Cortisol is a hormone that accelerates the aging process. If you eat desserts, try to consume them at lunch as you should allow at least 2 to 3 hours after taking sugar before sleeping. Sugar increases cortisol release, which in turn reduces growth hormone release, which is most prominent during the early stages of sleep. Sugar has also been shown to promote free radical formation. Reduction of sugar intake will reduce the amount of free radicals in the body. Triglyceride and LDL cholesterol (the "bad" cholesterol) has been shown to decrease with reduced sugar intake. Lastly, note that cancer cells prefer an environment rich in sugar, so soaking your cells in high sugar environment may promote cancer growth. Lastly, sugar attaches itself to proteins in the body, becoming cross-linked into yellow-brown compounds and forming a new sugar-protein substance called advanced glycation end-product (AGE). The higher the AGE levels, the faster you age. This has been well documented among diabetics, who have higher levels of AGE and incidences of artery, nerve, and multiple organ dysfunction compared to the general population. Lower residual sugar in wine = healthier wine, but if you prefer it sweeter, the use of grape concentrate contributes better mouthfeel, taste, acid balance, and complexity. Taste is not just sugar composition as there are a multitude of organic chemicals to also consider in grape concentrates, but at the end of the day sugar is a cheaper alternative.

Response:

Christopher, Honey can be used and it is particularly useful in a wine that lacks flavor or body.  Honey tends to impart flavors, even the whitest and lightest of honey but you can always experiment.  Test it on small quantities, preferably with someone else and if you like it then that’s all that counts. Having said that I would not use honey as a sweetener on a nicely balanced wine that has good flavor on its own. Glen Duff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So how well do we suppose Honey would work for sweetening then? Environmental growing conditions do influence Dextrose/Glucose levels in grapes, a contributing factor to grape juice quality. However the proportion of available dextrose/glucose to fructose in grape sugars is ALWAYS higher than what is found in sucrose. The terms glucose, dextrose, and diabetic sugar, are usually always made with primary reference to grape sugar and secondary source is honey, where it is found in abundance. The other reason for prefering grape juice relates to the polyphenolic compounds and anthocyanins which may also contribute to better flavour, mouthfeel, and health to the consumer. At the end of the day I would recommend grape juice or glucose over sucrose as a sweetner to wines, which is where the discussion began. Sucrose is a cheap alternative which alters taste, but the significance of the change is up to the consumer so, let your taste-buds be the judge. Cheers, Steve!

Response:

So how well do we suppose Honey would work for sweetening then?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Environmental growing conditions do influence Dextrose/Glucose levels in grapes, a contributing factor to grape juice quality. However the proportion of available dextrose/glucose to fructose in grape sugars is ALWAYS higher than what is found in sucrose. The terms glucose, dextrose, and diabetic sugar, are usually always made with primary reference to grape sugar and secondary source is honey, where it is found in abundance. The other reason for prefering grape juice relates to the polyphenolic compounds and anthocyanins which may also contribute to better flavour, mouthfeel, and health to the consumer. At the end of the day I would recommend grape juice or glucose over sucrose as a sweetner to wines, which is where the discussion began. Sucrose is a cheap alternative which alters taste, but the significance of the change is up to the consumer so, let your taste-buds be the judge. Cheers, Steve!

Response:

Not to put oil on the fire but what about lactose for sweetening wine? Ken

Response:

Oz,     An interesting disertation on Sugars, however I still defy anyone to pick out the exact same wines sweetened one by straight cane sugar, and the other by sweet reserve. It may be possible, but I am yet to see it in anyone that I have tasted wine with. I will add that I have been to extremely large tastings with highly experienced winemakers, and the type of sweetener if any has not been a topic that has been debated beyond stylistic approaches, and I think a lot more is being made of this topic than is warranted. John Dixon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Keep sugar to a minimum. Special care should be taken to minimize the intake of sugar such as glucose, sucrose, dextrose, high fructose corn syrup, malt syrup, as well as sugar. Sugar provides calories, and calories only. There are no nutrients to speak of at all, which is why sugar (and alcohol for that matter) is called an "empty-calorie" food – empty, that is of any vitamins or minerals, or phytonutrients. Excessive sugar is a negative fountain of youth. Reduction of sugar in the diet will reduce cortisol (the "bad" hormone) levels in your body. Cortisol is a hormone that accelerates the aging process. If you eat desserts, try to consume them at lunch as you should allow at least 2 to 3 hours after taking sugar before sleeping. Sugar increases cortisol release, which in turn reduces growth hormone release, which is most prominent during the early stages of sleep. Sugar has also been shown to promote free radical formation. Reduction of sugar intake will reduce the amount of free radicals in the body. Triglyceride and LDL cholesterol (the "bad" cholesterol) has been shown to decrease with reduced sugar intake. Lastly, note that cancer cells prefer an environment rich in sugar, so soaking your cells in high sugar environment may promote cancer growth. Lastly, sugar attaches itself to proteins in the body, becoming cross-linked into yellow-brown compounds and forming a new sugar-protein substance called advanced glycation end-product (AGE). The higher the AGE levels, the faster you age. This has been well documented among diabetics, who have higher levels of AGE and incidences of artery, nerve, and multiple organ dysfunction compared to the general population. Lower residual sugar in wine = healthier wine, but if you prefer it sweeter, the use of grape concentrate contributes better mouthfeel, taste, acid balance, and complexity. Taste is not just sugar composition as there are a multitude of organic chemicals to also consider in grape concentrates, but at the end of the day sugar is a cheaper alternative.

Response:

On those wine laws, if you need to add sugar to a must from California or Australia you probably need to learn a bit more about growing grapes.  It’s hard to imagine with the sun available there that you would need any.  It’s 10 degrees F here where I live right now, we need to add sugar to grapes grown around here on a regular basis. Personally, I use sucrose on wine even when sweetening for finish for the reasons Lum stated, but I don’t when making beer. Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Environmental growing conditions do influence Dextrose/Glucose levels in grapes, a contributing factor to grape juice quality. However the proportion of available dextrose/glucose to fructose in grape sugars is ALWAYS higher than what is found in sucrose. The terms glucose, dextrose, and diabetic sugar, are usually always made with primary reference to grape sugar and secondary source is honey, where it is found in abundance. The other reason for prefering grape juice relates to the polyphenolic compounds and anthocyanins which may also contribute to better flavour, mouthfeel, and health to the consumer. At the end of the day I would recommend grape juice or glucose over sucrose as a sweetner to wines, which is where the discussion began. Sucrose is a cheap alternative which alters taste, but the significance of the change is up to the consumer so, let your taste-buds be the judge. Cheers, Steve!

Response:

I believe comparative blind tastings of wine sweetened with grape juice or glucose versus sucrose has shown no statistical difference in preference and is therefore shown to be undetectable among those tested. Glen Duff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Environmental growing conditions do influence Dextrose/Glucose levels in grapes, a contributing factor to grape juice quality. However the proportion of available dextrose/glucose to fructose in grape sugars is ALWAYS higher than what is found in sucrose. The terms glucose, dextrose, and diabetic sugar, are usually always made with primary reference to grape sugar and secondary source is honey, where it is found in abundance. The other reason for prefering grape juice relates to the polyphenolic compounds and anthocyanins which may also contribute to better flavour, mouthfeel, and health to the consumer. At the end of the day I would recommend grape juice or glucose over sucrose as a sweetner to wines, which is where the discussion began. Sucrose is a cheap alternative which alters taste, but the significance of the change is up to the consumer so, let your taste-buds be the judge. Cheers, Steve!

Response:

So yes you can use sucrose instead of grape juice, but I stand by what I say, it does taste different. It also behaves differently once in your blood.

when my wine stops fermenting there

Question:

Paul, Ray, Trevor, and others, While my earliest memories of winemaking are of my grandfather making apple and pear wines ( His dictum: "Never start drinking last year’s wine until this year’s wine is bottled."), it was "First Steps in Winemaking" that launched my own beginnings as a hobbyist.  Thus, I "grew up" with Berry in my bookshelf, and that first book is still with me — well worn, loose pages, and many margin notes. Berry wrote over 40 books on beer and winemaking.  I own but six of them, but they are, to me, the collection from which all later books I acquired are measured.  Some are much better.  Some are woefully inadequate.  All that use American measures are appreciated, as I began acquiring Berry when he wrote strictly for an English market. Yes, his tecniques have been eclipsed, but they remain as solid guides.  If someone says this about any of us when we are gone, we will have truly lived.  Certainly Cyril J.J. Berry did.  He died on holiday in Spain and was buried in his beloved England. Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Response:

The following announcement was sent to me by an Australian friend.  If it has already been posted, forgive me but I did not see it.  Berry’s influence on home winemakers for decades was profound.  The world will be a poorer place without him. Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/ Dear Winemaking Friends, It is with great sadness I have to report the death of a man , whose contribution to the hobby of "Home Winemaking" will live on, C.J.J Berry (Cyril),was in his 88th year, he wrote and contributed his expertise to the hobby, over many years. He will almost certainly be remembered for his book "First Steps in Winemaking", a fitting epitaph to remember him by, and a legacy for us to carry on. Our thoughts go out to his widow and family. Goodbye old friend , and thank you. Tom (Thompson) Keys, President Midlands Winemaking Federation

Response:

    This is sad to read… I’m new to the hobby, but to my left is his book, "First Steps in Winemaking."  This book was the first handholding I received towards the creation of my first batch.  It’s one of my primary resources along with Jon Iverson’s book, "Home Winemaking Step by Step."     His legacy lives on through his work and I’m glad to read he lived a fruitful and ripe 88 years.     -Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The following announcement was sent to me by an Australian friend.  If it has already been posted, forgive me but I did not see it.  Berry’s influence on home winemakers for decades was profound.  The world will be a poorer place without him. Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/ Dear Winemaking Friends, It is with great sadness I have to report the death of a man , whose contribution to the hobby of "Home Winemaking" will live on, C.J.J Berry (Cyril),was in his 88th year, he wrote and contributed his expertise to the hobby, over many years. He will almost certainly be remembered for his book "First Steps in Winemaking", a fitting epitaph to remember him by, and a legacy for us to carry on. Our thoughts go out to his widow and family. Goodbye old friend , and thank you. Tom (Thompson) Keys, President Midlands Winemaking Federation

Response:

Thanks so much for posting this Jack.  I started winemaking back in the 70’s when Berry was King.  He was the guru we all turned to.  He taught me that country wine was not cheap booze.  I miss him and I never met him.  But I feel I have tasted his wine each time I have had a dewberry or apple wine. If we ever selected a father to our hobby I would posse his name for the position.  Yes it is older than him but he spread the word.  Maybe it would be better to say that he is our Jonnie Appleseed.  I would suggest that all of us who loved him go back to his books and make a wine by his recipe and dedicate it to him.  I will make a batch of "Peach Perfection".  His techniques are being eclipsed, and he would applaud that, but his love of our hobby will never be eclipsed by any of us. Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The following announcement was sent to me by an Australian friend.  If it has already been posted, forgive me but I did not see it.  Berry’s influence on home winemakers for decades was profound.  The world will be a poorer place without him. Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/ Dear Winemaking Friends, It is with great sadness I have to report the death of a man , whose contribution to the hobby of "Home Winemaking" will live on, C.J.J Berry (Cyril),was in his 88th year, he wrote and contributed his expertise to the hobby, over many years. He will almost certainly be remembered for his book "First Steps in Winemaking", a fitting epitaph to remember him by, and a legacy for us to carry on. Our thoughts go out to his widow and family. Goodbye old friend , and thank you. Tom (Thompson) Keys, President Midlands Winemaking Federation

Response:

This is a "one of post" but I feel that it would be remiss of me not to pay tribute to someone who guided me through my early winemaking years some 30+ years ago. Whilst time marches on and methods evolve you will find that most of the advice and recipes  of C.J.J.B still make sense today. I  have a small suspicion that we are all becoming just a tad too technical and scientific in our approach to wine making. I suspect that our determination to chemistrise  ( sic ) and sanitise and commercialise our wine making methods may not be necessary. Certainly some of my recipes for my wild fruit wines of blackberry and elderberry together with garden fruits have not changed at all in long years of wine making — and , although I have never been a competition man, I would hold up my fortified elderberry ( duly aged ) and some of my 3 year old blackberry against any comers. Hopefully Mount Olympus still promotes its  mortal genii to the status of gods — especially those following Bacchus. C.J.J berry will not be missed because his influence carries on! One should rejoice in his life and influence and not regret his passing. — Trevor A Panther In South Yorkshire, England This message has been checked for all known viruses. Any views expressed are solely those of the author and do not represent those of any associated organisation.

<snip

Response:

Trevor,      It is good to see that you are still well. Hope to see your posts again soon. John Dixon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a "one of post" but I feel that it would be remiss of me not to pay tribute to someone who guided me through my early winemaking years some 30+ years ago. Whilst time marches on and methods evolve you will find that most of the advice and recipes  of C.J.J.B still make sense today. I  have a small suspicion that we are all becoming just a tad too technical and scientific in our approach to wine making. I suspect that our determination to chemistrise  ( sic ) and sanitise and commercialise our wine making methods may not be necessary. Certainly some of my recipes for my wild fruit wines of blackberry and elderberry together with garden fruits have not changed at all in long years of wine making — and , although I have never been a competition man, I would hold up my fortified elderberry ( duly aged ) and some of my 3 year old blackberry against any comers. Hopefully Mount Olympus still promotes its  mortal genii to the status of gods — especially those following Bacchus. C.J.J berry will not be missed because his influence carries on! One should rejoice in his life and influence and not regret his passing. — Trevor A Panther In South Yorkshire, England This message has been checked for all known viruses. Any views expressed are solely those of the author and do not represent those of any associated organisation. <snip

Response:

Question:

Back carefully away from anyone who tells you what a good wine "should" taste like.  He/She is a snob and should be snubbed.  A good wine tastes good to you.  And if other people like it, that is a plus.  That is one of the grate things about this hobby.  You can tailor your wines to your taste (and to the taste of your loved ones). But if you try to chase the taste of a commercial wine you really like, you are probably doomed to failure.  Just make different wines and make them the way you like.  Consider making some wines that sound interesting but that you can’t buy.  If you give someone a bottle of home made Merlot it had better be darn good because they will be comparing it with their favorite Merlot.  But if you give them a bottle of Mead or Cranberry, they have nothing to compare it with and they can enjoy it for what it is. Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I like wine in general but to be honest I don’t really know that much about it. I’m not sure what a good wine "should" taste like etc… I know I like wine on the dry side, mainly really dark reds and possibly on the high side for alcohol. For example, the Clos Du Bois Merlot and Cab’s (13.8% alc.) are my favorite commercial wines hands down. Having said that, making wine is a newer hobby to me. I did it with my dad as a kid and now I’m doing it with my own kids. I hope what I make turns out well both for my own personal satisfaction and for those who drink it. I’m hoping to possibly have wines that we can give away as gifts to special friends or family. Something you make that turns out well seems to be an extra nice gift for some people… Jon. —      Come visit us on the web! http://www.largescale-trains.com     Home of the JJ&C Railroad Yes, I also take a carefree approach. I choose whatever happens to be available and sounds interesting. I generally don’t mess around with recipes. I just throw it in, more or less  loosely modelled after a "standard" recipe. I never bother with acid tests or hydrometers; I can tell by taste how much acid I need and I can give or take a percent or two on the alcohol. I tried a mopre serious approach once and it proved to be more work than I was willing to do, so I just play it by ear now. Apologies in advance for a slightly long and rambling post, but I am wondering whether anyone else here shares my approach to winemaking. To give you some background on where I’m coming from, I’m in the uk and my grandfather and mother both made ‘country’ wine in a reasonably casual kind of way (elderflower, elderberry, damson, blackberry, sloe, dandelion, quince – expeditions down country lanes to raid the hedgerows). Last year I made my own first attempts – and was very pleasantly surprised at the results. I put this down to either beginners luck or a particularly robust recipe, since I basically ignored it once I’d got it all safely into demijohns, the sugar went in as and when I remembered and I didn’t have time to bottle it before moving house. I’m waiting to find out how this year’s batch will turn out . If I’m realistic, I doubt I’ll ever be very interested in all the filtering, tinkering with chemistry, etc that the more serious amongst the group get into. I set time aside in the early autumn for fruit picking / starting things off, but don’t really want it to take up too much of the rest of the year (roll on retirement. Only 40-odd years to go). I therefore want to stick with fairly foolproof wines that aren’t going to need very much attention once they’re going. So (to get to the point), my view is that I’ll make country wine because I like the taste, it makes a nice change from wine I can buy, and its fun to have it bubbling away in the corner. Given that I have limited time and space to devote to this it seems like a better strategy to go for something a bit different and buy grape wine when I want to drink that. I strongly suspect that I’d always be disappointed in any efforts I made with grape kits, since I’d be comparing them to wine made by people with far more experience and control over the process. Plus, it seems a shame not to take advantage of the local hedgerows! Are there other people here with this kind of approach? This seems to be a slightly different (more old-fashioned perhaps?) tradition of wine-making to that pursued by the average poster here. Opinions anyone?

Response:

I like wine in general but to be honest I don’t really know that much about it. I’m not sure what a good wine "should" taste like etc… I know I like wine on the dry side, mainly really dark reds and possibly on the high side for alcohol. For example, the Clos Du Bois Merlot and Cab’s (13.8% alc.) are my favorite commercial wines hands down. Having said that, making wine is a newer hobby to me. I did it with my dad as a kid and now I’m doing it with my own kids. I hope what I make turns out well both for my own personal satisfaction and for those who drink it. I’m hoping to possibly have wines that we can give away as gifts to special friends or family. Something you make that turns out well seems to be an extra nice gift for some people… Jon. —      Come visit us on the web! http://www.largescale-trains.com     Home of the JJ&C Railroad

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I also take a carefree approach. I choose whatever happens to be available and sounds interesting. I generally don’t mess around with recipes. I just throw it in, more or less  loosely modelled after a "standard" recipe. I never bother with acid tests or hydrometers; I can tell by taste how much acid I need and I can give or take a percent or two on the alcohol. I tried a mopre serious approach once and it proved to be more work than I was willing to do, so I just play it by ear now. Apologies in advance for a slightly long and rambling post, but I am wondering whether anyone else here shares my approach to winemaking. To give you some background on where I’m coming from, I’m in the uk and my grandfather and mother both made ‘country’ wine in a reasonably casual kind of way (elderflower, elderberry, damson, blackberry, sloe, dandelion, quince – expeditions down country lanes to raid the hedgerows). Last year I made my own first attempts – and was very pleasantly surprised at the results. I put this down to either beginners luck or a particularly robust recipe, since I basically ignored it once I’d got it all safely into demijohns, the sugar went in as and when I remembered and I didn’t have time to bottle it before moving house. I’m waiting to find out how this year’s batch will turn out . If I’m realistic, I doubt I’ll ever be very interested in all the filtering, tinkering with chemistry, etc that the more serious amongst the group get into. I set time aside in the early autumn for fruit picking / starting things off, but don’t really want it to take up too much of the rest of the year (roll on retirement. Only 40-odd years to go). I therefore want to stick with fairly foolproof wines that aren’t going to need very much attention once they’re going. So (to get to the point), my view is that I’ll make country wine because I like the taste, it makes a nice change from wine I can buy, and its fun to have it bubbling away in the corner. Given that I have limited time and space to devote to this it seems like a better strategy to go for something a bit different and buy grape wine when I want to drink that. I strongly suspect that I’d always be disappointed in any efforts I made with grape kits, since I’d be comparing them to wine made by people with far more experience and control over the process. Plus, it seems a shame not to take advantage of the local hedgerows! Are there other people here with this kind of approach? This seems to be a slightly different (more old-fashioned perhaps?) tradition of wine-making to that pursued by the average poster here. Opinions anyone?

Response:

I suspect that there are more people who make their wine by recipe than by using all the fancy techniques described on this page.  But you will find a lot of discussion of simply following recipes here as well.  Wine is very forgiving so if you find a recipe you like it will probably work over and over.  Most of us experiment or regularly make hedge wines.  Great fun in making local wines.  (I am currently making a Mesquite Mead.  I am sure you do not have Mesquite in the UK.)  And as you said if you drink more than you make, might as well make the things you cannot find. Don’t put down the kit wines.  Especially the better white wines are bullet proof.  They will easily make as good of wines as you could want and they are very easy to make.  Get a good kit and you will be surprised.  If you can get it try the R.J. Spagnol’s Cellar Classic Gew

Question:

What State fairs are still open? Deadline for entry in California is long past. Thanks D., Anthony, Michael and Tom.  Your answers helped a lot.  Looks like my best bet is to start with a  kit, and make a larger, not smaller batch.  I have to make a trip to the brew shop next week, anyway, as I want to pick up some more beer equipment –  I’m going to try entering my beer in a state fair, just to see how it does. I’ll pick up a wine kit and extra carboy at the same time.  Thanks!

Making beer is much more difficult than making wine.  I made wine in an open crock the first several times I tried it.  I don’t recommend this–my plum wine went bad twice that way.  But in the beer carboy it worked great.  I don’t even use sulfites or anything else.  I just try to be as careful as I am making beer. For wine what you need is sugar, fruit or vegetable, water, and a bit of yeast.  I used to use special wine yeasts, but I’ve found I get decent results just with bread yeast.

Response:

What State fairs are still open? Deadline for entry in California is long past.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks D., Anthony, Michael and Tom.  Your answers helped a lot.  Looks like my best bet is to start with a kit, and make a larger, not smaller batch.  I have to make a trip to the brew shop next week, anyway, as I want to pick up some more beer equipment – I’m going to try entering my beer in a state fair, just to see how it does. I’ll pick up a wine kit and extra carboy at the same time.  Thanks! —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Hello.  I’ve had some experience (about 3 years worth) with brewing beer, so I’m not an absolute beginner with brewing.  I was considering giving wine making a try, and have some questions: 1. I have a lot of beer making equipment, such as 5 gallon boiler, carboys, hoses, syphons, thiefs, funnel, filter.  I was wondering how much else I need in the way of equipment to make wine.  i.e., what is the minimum hardware required to get started?

You’ll need a hydrometer for sure, as well as an acid test kit.  You could dispense with the latter if you have or have access to a good pH meter. 2. Beer is nearly always brewed in 5 gallon batches, and I’d hate to wait 6 months or a year and find out I made 5 gallons of yuck.  Is it possible/ok/common to brew smaller batches, like 1 gallon?

The short answer is "yes".  The long answer is "Why bother?  It takes a long time to get a batch of wine through the pipeline, and once it gets there you’ll be amazed how fast it will disappear!  Make at _least_ 5 gallons, plus extra for topping". 3.  I’ve been reading a lot here about topping off – seems to be some pretty scary stuff – sounds like you’re always opening the fermenter (thus exposing it to air!) and dumping in extra wine.   I assume from the volume of posts that it’s necessary, but: a) Why is it necessary?  What is happening to lower the volume of wine in the first place?

Racking (siphoning) away from the sediment (lees) that forms during fermentation.  You end up dumping some solids at each racking, thereby reducing the volume. Topping is necessary to keep dead airspace away from the wine.  That’s where spoilage organisms grow, so if you eliminate that you have a leg up in the fight against spoilage. b) Where are you all getting all this extra wine you’re dumping in? Buying it?  If so, how do you mix and match the flavors.

You can use store bought wine for topping.  Better is to make extra and have it stored in smaller bottles (also topped up, of course).  Don’t top with water if you can avoid it.  That’s better than air though.  Some people use clean marbles or gravel.  That’s OK too. c) How much risk of contamination do you have by topping off?

WAY less than if you don’t top off! 4. What would I use for a good, but easy wine, for a first time learning experience?  (I’m speaking strictly of main ingredients, here)  I’d want something that I can say "hey!  That IS good!  No WONDER they go to all that trouble!".  Do I use botttled grape juice?  Frozen?  What kind?

Start with a good quality kit (red).  Don’t cheap out on it.  Spend the $$$ for a good quality kit, and follow the directions – at least the first time. One exception:  If the wine goes dry, i.e. specific gravity ~0.995, don’t add the "stabilizer".  That’s only required for sweet wines. 5. In beer making, I can make beer with strictly malt, sugar, yeast, hops and water – don’t need to add any agents or refiners (although you can). It SEEMS like the wine recipes I see always add agents or refiners.  Is it possible to make a good wine with only juice, sugar, yeast and water, or do you always need refinings?

Ideally, with grapes you don’t need to add sugar or acid.  Certainly, you should never add water to fresh grapes.  You have to add water to kits to reconstitute them. I recommend that you add cultured yeast to whatever you’re making.  So called "natural" fermentations will work, but you run an unneccesary risk in using wild yeasts.  The results aren’t nearly as predictable as with a known, good strain. 6.  How the heck do you manage to wait a year before tasting your results!!!  :-)

You don’t, and you shouldn’t.  Remember the topping wine?  That’s one of the main reasons for having it. Tom S

Response:

5. In beer making, I can make beer with strictly malt, sugar, yeast, hops and water – don’t need to add any agents or refiners (although you can). It SEEMS like the wine recipes I see always add agents or refiners.  Is it possible to make a good wine with only juice, sugar, yeast and water, or do you always need refinings?

I’m sure you’ll probably find my opinion is in the minority, but I’ve been making wine all my life using just grapes and nothing else, no added yeast, sulfites, sugar etc… —   One should avoid evil like a merchant with much goods and only a small   escort avoids a dangerous road, and like a man who loves life avoids   poison. 123   If there is no wound on one’s hand, one can handle poison. Poison has no   effect where there is no wound. There is no evil for the non-doer. 124

Response:

Hello.  I’ve had some experience (about 3 years worth) with brewing beer, so I’m not an absolute beginner with brewing.  I was considering giving wine making a try, and have some questions: 1. I have a lot of beer making equipment, such as 5 gallon boiler, carboys, hoses, syphons, thiefs, funnel, filter.  I was wondering how much else I need in the way of equipment to make wine.  i.e., what is the minimum hardware required to get started?

First, let me warn you that I’m also a beginner. Considering how long some of these folks have been making wine, I may always be a beginner. I do have four wines, a cider and a stout going, and I have a good feel for the differences between brewing and winemaking. Anyway, I can’t think of any additional equipment you might need. There is some advanced equipment you could get (ph paper and/or a meter, and kits to determine total acidity and sulfites), but those aren’t necessary at this stage. You could buy barrels, too, but again it isn’t necessary. 2. Beer is nearly always brewed in 5 gallon batches, and I’d hate to wait 6 months or a year and find out I made 5 gallons of yuck.  Is it possible/ok/common to brew smaller batches, like 1 gallon?

Oh yes. Look at the recipes at winemaking.jackkeller.net; I think Jack sizes them all for 1-gallon batches. All you need to do is find some 1-gallon jugs. 3.  I’ve been reading a lot here about topping off – seems to be some pretty scary stuff – sounds like you’re always opening the fermenter (thus exposing it to air!) and dumping in extra wine.   I assume from the volume of posts that it’s necessary, but: a) Wy is it necessary?  What is happening to lower the volume of wine in the first place? b) Where are you all getting all this extra wine you’re dumping in?  Buying it?  If so, how do you mix and match the flavors. c) How much risk of contamination do you have by topping off?

You might top off a wine for two reasons. First, wine evaporates when stored in a barrel. You’ll need to top off to keep the barrel full. Some day this is a problem I hope to have. Second, you tend to rack more than you do when brewing. Not a lot more (depending on the wine), but you might rack a wine 3 times and you might rack a beer once into a secondary fermenter (and some brewers don’t bother with that). Each time you rack, you lose a little wine (along with sediment, of course). I think there’s some risk to topping off (or adding marbles, as I do), but sanitation and sulfites can protect you (and some people don’t use the sulfites, although I think that’s risky). 4. What would I use for a good, but easy wine, for a first time learning experience?  (I’m speaking strictly of main ingredients, here)  I’d want something that I can say "hey!  That IS good!  No WONDER they go to all that trouble!".  Do I use botttled grape juice?  Frozen?  What kind?

If I were you, I’d probably buy a kit. Most kits you can buy use concentrated juice. I’m actually making a wine with Welches white grape juice concentrate, which at two months isn’t bad. Alternately, you could get 3-6 pounds of fresh fruit and make a 1-gallon batch of wine with it. Raspberries are supposed to make a good wine, for instance. 5. In beer making, I can make beer with strictly malt, sugar, yeast, hops and water – don’t need to add any agents or refiners (although you can). It SEEMS like the wine recipes I see always add agents or refiners.  Is it possible to make a good wine with only juice, sugar, yeast and water, or do you always need refinings?

It depends on the fruit you’re using. Many of the people who post to this newsgroup can’t get good grapes on a consistent basis, and so use some other fruit. Other fruit typically don’t have the same amount of sugar as grapes do, and hence need added sugar. The amount of sugar, total acidity and other characteristics will vary even among grapes, and you may want to adjust them. 6.  How the heck do you manage to wait a year before tasting your results!!!  :-)

I haven’t. I’ve been tasting the wine when I rack it and/or test it for acidity. I should probably test the wine I’ve been oaking more often…

Response:

Hi Nony I have been making wine for 6 years and just started to make beer from grain. 1. I have a lot of beer making equipment, such as 5 gallon boiler, carboys, hoses, syphons, thiefs, funnel, filter.  I was wondering how much else I need in the way of equipment to make wine.  i.e., what is the minimum hardware required to get started?

You didn’t mention a hydrometer. 2. Beer is nearly always brewed in 5 gallon batches, and I’d hate to wait 6 months or a year and find out I made 5 gallons of yuck.  Is it possible/ok/common to brew smaller batches, like 1 gallon?

Lots of 1 gallon recipies 3.  I’ve been reading a lot here about topping off – seems to be some pretty scary stuff – sounds like you’re always opening the fermenter (thus exposing it to air!) and dumping in extra wine.   I assume from the volume of posts that it’s necessary, but: a) Wy is it necessary?  What is happening to lower the volume of wine in the first place? b) Where are you all getting all this extra wine you’re dumping in? Buying it?  If so, how do you mix and match the flavors. c) How much risk of contamination do you have by topping off?

Beer is much more succeptable to spoiling than wine but I will leave it to the experts to explain why to top up. 4. What would I use for a good, but easy wine, for a first time learning experience?  (I’m speaking strictly of main ingredients, here)  I’d want something that I can say "hey!  That IS good!  No WONDER they go to all that trouble!".  Do I use botttled grape juice?  Frozen?  What kind?

Try a wine kit first. They are easy and come with all the ingredients. 5. In beer making, I can make beer with strictly malt, sugar, yeast, hops and water – don’t need to add any agents or refiners (although you can). It SEEMS like the wine recipes I see always add agents or refiners.  Is it possible to make a good wine with only juice, sugar, yeast and water, or do you always need refinings?

When I made wine with my Italian buddy, all we used was grapes and yeast. Of course we had to have a press for this. 6.  How the heck do you manage to wait a year before tasting your results!!!  :-)

Make lots and lots!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for any help or suggestions. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Question:

This is essentially the question I raised in the mash water thread. However, you are likely thinking in term of post-fermentation additions as we do with wine. I suspect the value there is limited. To achieve the protective level of 0.8 ppm molecular SO2 at beer pH levels, would require the addition of more potassium metabisulfite than any of us could tolerate. It would stink like a roomful of burnt matches.

The PH and free SO2 was one point I never considered and that answers my question. Thanks for the posts everyone it led down a couple of trains of thought and thats always nice. Don

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, alot of people do 3 gallon batches instead of 5.  You can use the same equipment, and for all practical purposes just multiply the recipe ingredients by 3/5. Thanks for the info on the shelf life, good to know that it might last longer. As far as the 3/5ths goes that is what alot of the archived messages seem to say. Just do a 3/5ths and then tweak although a few postings were saying the you may want to use a bit more than 3/5ths hops as the utilization changes a bit on smaller batches. I was actually going to go to 1/2 size batches and perhaps buy some 11.5 liter carboys which I could make use of in wine making as well. Don

To solve this problem, I brew with friends.  We split the batches. Works great, though sometimes it seems there isn’t enough to go around! By the way, while the beer won’t spoil (all else being correct) in a year, it will change drastically in a lot less than that time.  Beer that I brewed last November is quite good right now, but also quite different than it was in December.  So, some styles might be best while young, and others best with aging.  IMO, its a matter of personal preference which is best. If you’re concerned with staling due to oxidation, then use the oxygen absorbing caps. Regards, Mike Sharp

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yep, alot of people do 3 gallon batches instead of 5.  You can use the same equipment, and for all practical purposes just multiply the recipe ingredients by 3/5. Thanks for the info on the shelf life, good to know that it might last longer. As far as the 3/5ths goes that is what alot of the archived messages seem to say. Just do a 3/5ths and then tweak although a few postings were saying the you may want to use a bit more than 3/5ths hops as the utilization changes a bit on smaller batches. I was actually going to go to 1/2 size batches and perhaps buy some 11.5 liter carboys which I could make use of in wine making as well. Don

Mike Uchima’s web page has several 3 gal recipes that he’s brewed before that you might find useful: http://hbd.org/uchima/

Response:

Hi, Currently into making wine, I’m thinking about getting into brewing some beer as well. In winemaking they use potassium metabisulfite to stop oxidation of the wine. I know homemade beer lasts a fair amount of time but would it last even longer with a small addition of SO2?

This is essentially the question I raised in the mash water thread. However, you are likely thinking in term of post-fermentation additions as we do with wine. I suspect the value there is limited. To achieve the protective level of 0.8 ppm molecular SO2 at beer pH levels, would require the addition of more potassium metabisulfite than any of us could tolerate. It would stink like a roomful of burnt matches. However, I do add k-meta to my mash water (2 g per 5 gallons) in the hope of preventing the creation of staling compounds during the mash process. This won’t apply to you if you are planning to go the extract route. Proper handling and storage will help control premature deterioration and as a new brewer, those are the things you should be concentrating on now. Brian

Response:

Yep, alot of people do 3 gallon batches instead of 5.  You can use the same equipment, and for all practical purposes just multiply the recipe ingredients by 3/5.

Thanks for the info on the shelf life, good to know that it might last longer. As far as the 3/5ths goes that is what alot of the archived messages seem to say. Just do a 3/5ths and then tweak although a few postings were saying the you may want to use a bit more than 3/5ths hops as the utilization changes a bit on smaller batches. I was actually going to go to 1/2 size batches and perhaps buy some 11.5 liter carboys which I could make use of in wine making as well. Don

Response:

And we can only conclude that it must be the ingress of air that improves the beer.

I would argue that it’s the aging that improves the flavour, and the oxygenation which is degrading it after being tapped too long.  Most real ales are served very young, correct?  With my own homebrews, the difference in taste during the first week or two of a beer, even day to day during that time, is amazing.  I’d suggest that the improvement you’re seeing is just a matter of the effects of aging in a beer containing live yeast, nothing more, and it’s the air you’re introducing during serving that is causing it to go stale after several days of being tapped.  Hypothetically, age a cask ale ("kegged" to US homebrewers) without introducing oxygen, and I’d imagine it would still benefit from the improvement you’re talking about during the first several days, and yet last longer.  In fact, you may find that without the air degrading it, the beer will continue to improve and be far better past the point at which a typical oxygenated real ale has gone stale. I completely agree with your previous assertions that lower carbonation (perfectly acheivable via forced carbonation, but that’s a topic we already covered *grin*) and warmer serving temperatures common to real ale are a huge improvement for beer.  However, I am completely mistified by the idea that oxygenating the beer is good for it, unless you’re used to the off flavours that oxygen causes and have come to expect them. In the end, it all comes down to what your personal preferences are. You may happen to enjoy the quality that oxygenated beer has, whether that’s a genuine preference or a learned behaviour.  Most US homebrewers that I have heard from tend to dislike or try to avoid oxygenation in their brews. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***            *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

Response:

My understanding is that the normal life of the beer is less than a year so I would probably be faced with a bunch of skunk.

Not true.  Depending on the style it may hit it’s peak in under a year, but it certainly won’t go bad just by aging longer.  Other beer styles will really start to get good at about one year in age.  Some of the hop character may fade over time, but it’ll still be drinkable.  Also, skunking is caused by chemicals from the hops reacking with UV light. As long as you don’t store your beers in clear bottles in direct sunlight or under flourescent lamps, you shouldn’t have any problems with skunking at all. In addition, we’re thinking about having another child and that severely curtails my wife’s drinking habits who then gets grumpy when she sees me having a beer. Them Brits think that if they can’t have a beer no one can.

Once you get into the hobby, you’ll be surprised at how many friends want to come over and "sample".  The homebrew will disappear faster than you think. I think the solution may be to go to half recipes, which is what I’m exploring now. I may also try potassium metabisulfite in some testers.

Yep, alot of people do 3 gallon batches instead of 5.  You can use the same equipment, and for all practical purposes just multiply the recipe ingredients by 3/5. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***            *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

Response:

Back to the original question – beer keeps well for a long time provided that it is sound and that it is not bottled or kegged with any sediment. It should be perfectly clear and racked off .And normal hygeine rules followed of course.

One of the reasons I brought it up was that a "normal" 5 gal batch would leave me with about 50 beer. If I wanted to experiment a bit I might easily end up with 150 which is only three batches and not alot of experimenting. My understanding is that the normal life of the beer is less than a year so I would probably be faced with a bunch of skunk. In addition, we’re thinking about having another child and that severely curtails my wife’s drinking habits who then gets grumpy when she sees me having a beer. Them Brits think that if they can’t have a beer no one can. I think the solution may be to go to half recipes, which is what I’m exploring now. I may also try potassium metabisulfite in some testers. Don

Response:

Back to the original question – beer keeps well for a long time provided that it is sound and that it is not bottled or kegged with any sediment. It should be perfectly clear and racked off .And normal hygeine rules followed of course.

Response:

You may well be right , but the beer does not seem to take on the flavours normally associated with oxygenation. I do not like the apple/varnish tinge of aldehydes , for example.I certainly don’t enjoy acetic tastes in beer. It just seems to taste cleaner and fresher. Perhaps off-flavours have been vented off ? We have been scratching our heads over this one !

I wonder if air, in the short term, can react with beer or the yeast in the cask to produce flavor compounds that are different than the staling/oxidized flavors we generally associate with oxygenation. Then after several days, the beer goes stale. One experiment you could try would be opening your polypin to air (when you have about a weeks worth of beer left) and see if it matures in the same manner that it does at your local pub.

Response:

You may well be right , but the beer does not seem to take on the flavours normally associated with oxygenation. I do not like the apple/varnish tinge of aldehydes , for example.I certainly don’t enjoy acetic tastes in beer. It just seems to taste cleaner and fresher. Perhaps off-flavours have been vented off ? We have been scratching our heads over this one !

Response:

I would be interested to receive comments on my thoughts and won’t be offended if people strongly disagree with me.

I don’t suppose I disagree with your point on real ale, however I think the point of S02 or any other antioxidant is to protect during *long term* storage.  I think it’s pointless to use antioxidants in any form if the beer is supposed to be consumed fresh, even if oxidation isn’t important to conditioning.  To me, this means lagers, barleywines, and any other beer (including fake ale) where long term stability in the bottle or keg is important. In any case, I would thing it’s preferable to capture oxygen, when necessary, outside of the beer with a "getter", like the O2 caps.  A getter is the general name for a material that captures some other material, either by adsorbtion, absorbtion or chemical reaction. Regards, Mike Sharp

Response:

There is a device sometimes used over here called the "cask breather" which replaces drawn off beer with CO2 at atmospheric pressure simply in order to keep air out . This preserves the life of the beer by a couple of days – fine if youre not selling much – but the consensus is that the beer does not fully develop using it.

I think it’s just a matter of being "used" to oxygenated beer to some degree.  The phrase "not fully develop" without it leads me to guess that you’ve come to expect it in your brews.  Certainly nothing wrong with it if that’s what you like.  It’s just like any other flavour preference, some people like it, some don’t, and some have developed a taste for it over time… kinda like anchovies on pizza over here.  You either love it or hate it. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***            *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

Response:

Thanks for your reply , John. I don’t pretend to understand why the beer at home doesn’t improve but at the pub it does. Certainly the ale in my cask at home does change a lot over time , and we reckon that it is as good as it will get after say a week. But how do you explain how beer in the pub , however good it is when the cask is first tapped , seems to improve as time goes by ? There is a device sometimes used over here called the "cask breather" which replaces drawn off beer with CO2 at atmospheric pressure simply in order to keep air out . This preserves the life of the beer by a couple of days – fine if youre not selling much – but the consensus is that the beer does not fully develop using it. Several of us sat round the table discussing this – one of them the landlord who was quite convinced like the rest of us that beer gets better over the few days it is sold. I mention the landlord because he is continually monitoring the beer he sells.The beer in my sealed container at home certainly does not. Now I am not suggesting that air is good for beer except over a very short time under certain conditions , but I am at a loss to explain the changes in any other way. Has anyone done a proper study of this ?

Response:

Wheeler suggests a small amount of bisulphite will stabilise beer. For years I have been trying to brew beers as good as those I drink in the pub. I have the sams basic ingredients (I buy malt and hops from the local breweries and they give me the yeast) and despite all my efforts , although I brew good beer it lacks something – for the lack of a better description call it freshness or cleanliness of taste. Having read and posted messages in this NG for a while it has dawned on me that the problem I have is in the dispense. I leave my beer in secondary fermenters until it is clear then put it into a plastic cask with 3 ounces of sugar to prime it. When I want a pint I simply turn the tap and out it comes. The relevance to the thread is this ;  my beer is kept free of air.The beer I am trying to emulate ( non "real ale" drinkers can yawn at this point)  has to let air into the cask to let the beer out. And this improves it. No doubt at all about this. We discussed the matter this lunchtime over some mild . The landlord said that he put it on last Sunday ( to-day is Thursday) and he hoped to sell enough to replace the cask this evening.It had preached its peak and would get no better.(and was in danger of getting worse before long.) It was universally agreed that once tapped , beer gets better by the day. However , all good things come to an end and eventually the air will cause the beer to go off. Often the last pint is the best of all. (Some pubs keep it too long and the result is a dreadful pintand this can put people off cask ale.)  And we can only conclude that it must be the ingress of air that improves the beer. You will gather that I don’t regard it as necessary to add chemicals to beer to prevent oxidation. I am of course talking about beer for relatively quick consumption. I would be interested to receive comments on my thoughts and won’t be offended if people strongly disagree with me.

Response:

Hi, Currently into making wine, I’m thinking about getting into brewing some beer as well. In winemaking they use potassium metabisulfite to stop oxidation of the wine. I know homemade beer lasts a fair amount of time but would it last even longer with a small addition of SO2? I know most people would say why bother but I am asking because we do not drink alot of beer and it would seem I will have alot while I experiment with recipes.

Hopefully you’ll get a better answer, but IIRC someone posted a pretty good analysis on here recently of why potassium metabisulfites do not have much of an effect in beer as opposed to wine.  I believe it had to do with the different PH level of beer inhibiting the usefullness. With beer, you are probably going to end up replacing alot of the O2 in the bottle/keg with CO2 when you carbonate the beer, which you don’t do with wine, so there’s not as much of a worry about oxidation problems with long term storage.  Not many brewers stress over it, other than being careful with their procedures during the brewing/fermentation phases. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***            *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

Response:

Hi, Currently into making wine, I’m thinking about getting into brewing some beer as well. In winemaking they use potassium metabisulfite to stop oxidation of the wine. I know homemade beer lasts a fair amount of time but would it last even longer with a small addition of SO2? I know most people would say why bother but I am asking because we do not drink alot of beer and it would seem I will have alot while I experiment with recipes. Don

Response:

Question:

It may be that "invasive" isn’t quite the right word–that is, it’s not that individual plants grow so quickly or spread so fast, but that the seeds are spread widely and the plants don’t have predators, so where they sprout, they grow. Even a slow-growing plant that seeded widely and wasn’t curbed might come to be a problem over time. The part of New Jersey I’m from is also suffering from an overpopulation of deer, which probably eat everything *except* the barberries, putting them at an unfair advantage. It’s also true that the barberries I’ve seen in the forests are not the special cultivars; they look like the original species. So you’re probably right, it’s probably much more the mass plantings than the single shrub we might plant in our garden that are doing the damage. My mother mentioned the problem to a friend of hers in Maine who takes things very much to heart, and who promptly started a local mini-campaign to exterminate the barberry–visiting the neighbors armed with shears and garbage bags, exhorting them to rid themselves of The Pest… sort of reminiscent of the old temperance campaigns. Would this be true of cultivars of Japanese barberries which are the most often offered in nurseries now? I’ve read that both B. vulgaris from Europe & B. thunbergii from Japan had become extensively invasive in some regions of the Northeast & marginally invasive in some areas around the Great Lakes. But would that include the purpurea or the aurea & other garden cultivars, or just the original species as imported a century ago? My big red cultivars show no indication of spreading beyond where they were planted long ago, & the golden barely grows at all, it’s practically a dwarf. I’ve not heard of these being invasive though I don’t know for a certainty they’re not.

[snip] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So in places where these sorts of plants were used as part of public works projects — sometimes ill-conceived pork-barrel projects for farmers who’d grow these "future weeds" specifically for the government to plant all over tarnation — they indeed became invasive & birds & animals indeed dispersed the seeds farther & farther from roadsides, farmland fringes, & watersheds. But if it had only been gardeners, the problem would have been miniscule. Though certainly Julia is right in that more of us as gardeners should give some thought to what we plant since we are contributing factors, it’s just that getting guilt-ridden or paranoid about it is in too many cases due to falsely blaming gardeners for what agriculturalists & the government did. -paghat the ratgirl — "Flowers are commonly badly designed, inartistic in color, & ill-smelling." -Ambrose Bierce Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.angelfire.com/grrl/paghat/gardenhome.html#top

Response:

Barberry fruit is edible and has a tart lemon flavor that is perfect in jams and jellies.  It is lively enough to stand alone or be mixed with other fruits. — Melana Edible Wild Kitchen www.ediblewild.com —

This is good to know.  Thank you! — scarlett —

Response:

One thing to be aware of in planting barberries, at least in some areas like the Northeast, is that they are invasive and have the potential to ruin areas of woodland. I know that near where I grew up in New Jersey, whole sections of the forest in the nearby national park are completely choked with barberries, which are seeded by birds from people’s gardens, and then spread unchecked (since nothing eats them). The same thing has happened in parts of Maine, and I’m sure elsewhere as well. If you’re not near any woods then this probably isn’t too much of a concern… Julia

Thanks for the warning. –scarlett —

Response:

I’ve just read an article that says Canada will be allowing the planting of barberry shrubs again, after a 40-year ban.  (The Cdn Agriculture Dept prohibited the movement of the barberry shrub into and within Canada in the mid-60s because it acted as an alternate host for black stem rust of wheat.) Apparently, we’ll be able to buy Japanese barberry this spring.  I’d love to plant something in a certain area of my yard, to discourage trespassers.  I’m in zone 4b and the area gets full sun from about 11am to 6pm.  The soil is sandy, but I amend any areas where I’m planting.  Any particular recommendations or suggestions? thanks in advance –scarlett–

Response:

I’ve just read an article that says Canada will be allowing the planting of barberry shrubs again, after a 40-year ban.  (The Cdn Agriculture Dept prohibited the movement of the barberry shrub into and within Canada in the mid-60s because it acted as an alternate host for black stem rust of wheat.) Apparently, we’ll be able to buy Japanese barberry this spring.  I’d love to plant something in a certain area of my yard, to discourage trespassers.  I’m in zone 4b and the area gets full sun from about 11am to 6pm.  The soil is sandy, but I amend any areas where I’m planting.  Any particular recommendations or suggestions? thanks in advance –scarlett–

I inherited with the house several barberries, the red variety & the gold variety. The gold ones though just as old as the red have always remained small. The red however is a large vigorous shrub. Here’s my barberry page: http://www.angelfire.com/grrl/paghat/barberry.html#top A random thought, if it’s the fringe of your property & you just want a barrier, why not some not TOO aggressive EDIBLE berry? There are "blackberry-raspberry" hibrids on the market that get big enough to still be a barrier in winter, but not run-away-insane like big English blackberry briars. Even just a "rainbow hedge" of various raspberries — black raspberries, red raspberries, purple, & yellow — that would be so colorful when fruiting. Some blackberry varities grow as "canes" almost like upright trunks, & if properly pruned seasonally form lovely tidy bushes rather than those "left for wild" snakeu masses. In areas with really cold winters blackberries might not thrive, but raspberries do well. The "full sun" area you describe would maximize harvests, & some unusual cultivar or hybrid could be really thrilling as it’d be something edible you’d never find in the supermarkets in or out of season. What barberry would have over this option is if you didn’t want to tend to the hedge ever, & no interest in harvesting berries, then barberry can be neglected & still look pleasant, whereas various bramble berries are ornamental only if taken care of & could otherwise get noxious. -paghat the ratgirl — "Flowers are commonly badly designed, inartistic in color, & ill-smelling." -Ambrose Bierce Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.angelfire.com/grrl/paghat/gardenhome.html#top

Response:

One thing to be aware of in planting barberries, at least in some areas like the Northeast, is that they are invasive and have the potential to ruin areas of woodland. I know that near where I grew up in New Jersey, whole sections of the forest in the nearby national park are completely choked with barberries, which are seeded by birds from people’s gardens, and then spread unchecked (since nothing eats them). The same thing has happened in parts of Maine, and I’m sure elsewhere as well. If you’re not near any woods then this probably isn’t too much of a concern… Julia

Would this be true of cultivars of Japanese barberries which are the most often offered in nurseries now? I’ve read that both B. vulgaris from Europe & B. thunbergii from Japan had become extensively invasive in some regions of the Northeast & marginally invasive in some areas around the Great Lakes. But would that include the purpurea or the aurea & other garden cultivars, or just the original species as imported a century ago? My big red cultivars show no indication of spreading beyond where they were planted long ago, & the golden barely grows at all, it’s practically a dwarf. I’ve not heard of these being invasive though I don’t know for a certainty they’re not. I’ve read that in northeastern deciduous forests & in drainage areas near roads & edges of dairy lands near the Great Lakes, non-native barberries have been a problem usually assessed as minor because they’re easily removed when spotted, & they die off in drought years. But wheat-growing states became worried about them not so much because they outcompeted native plants but because even as a modrately invasive plant there was a possible threat of them spreading rust to wheat crops. Hence there were a lot of warnings a few years back about removing them when spotted anywhere near farmland. More recently this has been assessed as less of a problem than formerly assumed. There was also some fear of barberries around cattlelands because they are poisonous to cattle, but really only desparately hungry badly neglected cattle go near barberries. So for agricultural reasons Japanese & European barberries have been a little feared & even native varieties have been cleared from some areas because of a largely unjustified fear they’d harm cattle or spread rust. The non-native barberries are NOT invasive in areas with annual or periodic droubt, cannot establish themselves in grasslands as grass sucks it dry & kills it, & it does not survive burn-throughs in fire-adapted regions. The Japanese & European barberries are potentially a problem at edges of wetlands, run-off areas from agricultural land, roadside ditches, & rainy oak forests. But barberry is an extravagantly large family of plants & what is true of B. vulgaris & B. thunbergii would not be true of all barberries; some of our native barberries are so delicate that human intrusions into habitate have left them endangered. Lately restrictions on planting them in some regions have been removed because a lot of the fears are now regarded as unfounded. But there’s no doubt there are some places especially in the Northeast where they’ve gotten into forests on the edge of wetlands & done rather too well in the wild. In some areas where they became invasive they weren’t really spread from gardens. In many areas of the United States sevral plants have been intentionally planted along hundreds of miles of highway, including Burning Bush, Barberries, multiflora rose, autumn olive, & scotch broom. There are several otehrs, but that list of five has become a problem chiefly where they were heavily used at roadsides or as agricultural hedges (as the English blackberry was used in previous generations & so is now an invasive horror). They became invasive because they were intentionally & very misguidedly used to protect roadside soils in a colorful manner. Another massive government usage most people never see has been in city watersheds. Purple loosestrife & barberry were intentionally planted in watersheds for many years, then someone noticed it was a bad idea & veritable armies of volunteers have gone into these watersheds especially in the East trying to undo what was intentionally done. Further, the governments of Canada & the Untied States go through "fads" about these things — this year’s government-preferred Beloved Stopper Of Erosion & Provider Of Agricultural Employment, is next year’s Invasive Spreader Of Plant Diseases (but because no big growing industry benefits form tearing them up, it’s up to ecology volunteers to undo the damage that well-paid growers & roadside planters caused). Sometimes the condemnation is as overwrought & exaggerated as was the former praise — while praising it the risks were predictable but intentionally overlooked, & when condemning it the benifits might still be part of the picture too. So in places where these sorts of plants were used as part of public works projects — sometimes ill-conceived pork-barrel projects for farmers who’d grow these "future weeds" specifically for the government to plant all over tarnation — they indeed became invasive & birds & animals indeed dispersed the seeds farther & farther from roadsides, farmland fringes, & watersheds. But if it had only been gardeners, the problem would have been miniscule. Though certainly Julia is right in that more of us as gardeners should give some thought to what we plant since we are contributing factors, it’s just that getting guilt-ridden or paranoid about it is in too many cases due to falsely blaming gardeners for what agriculturalists & the government did. -paghat the ratgirl — "Flowers are commonly badly designed, inartistic in color, & ill-smelling." -Ambrose Bierce Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.angelfire.com/grrl/paghat/gardenhome.html#top

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One thing to be aware of in planting barberries, at least in some areas like the Northeast, is that they are invasive and have the potential to ruin areas of woodland. I know that near where I grew up in New Jersey, whole sections of the forest in the nearby national park are completely choked with barberries, which are seeded by birds from people’s gardens, and then spread unchecked (since nothing eats them). The same thing has happened in parts of Maine, and I’m sure elsewhere as well. If you’re not near any woods then this probably isn’t too much of a concern… Julia

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Barberry fruit is edible and has a tart lemon flavor that is perfect in jams and jellies.  It is lively enough to stand alone or be mixed with other fruits. — Melana

There are so many barberry species I don’t think this should be said of them generically. For country living, one reason to have a barberry barrier instead of raspberries is because even bears don’t like barberries if there are any other choices! The one I discussed, Japanese barberry, is not normally considered edible though it wouldn’t kill anyone. The problem with attempting to harvest the Red Japanese Barberry or any other decorative cultivar of Berberis thunbergii is first of all the fruit tastes hideous — & being non-poisonous is not sufficient to make it really edible. Second, with berries small as the heads of nails, you’d pick them for an hour & have only a fourth of a cup, barely enough to ruin a batch of lemon marmelaide. Other less often gardened Berberis species are less repulsive. Mst people who do harvest them do so from the wild. Even the "better" ones such as Oregon Grapes (Berberis aquifolium & Berberis repens, I think may now be reclassified Mahonia sp) have highly limited commercial harvest viability, & often they are taken for the alleged medicinal value of the root rather than grapes for jams, though some people do make mixed jams or marmelaides with them. They are sometimes used like cranberries mixed with apples to make them more pallatable, as a lemonade-like apple drink, or fermented with apple wine by amateur winemakers. But the alkaloids in Mahonia (& in a few other native barberries) are sufficiently caustic if many are eaten raw, they WILL make people ill, are known to be harmful to some birds (though fine for large game birds), & are removed from the periphery of cattle-land because if cows eat them they can die. The Oregon Grape does make a nice large wild-looking hedge, & unlike the Japanese barberry it keeps its leaves year-round. It will look a lot more unruly than a Japanese ornamental barberry however. "Processed" by cooking or fermenting Berberis sp lose the worst elements of causticity but still taste rather nasty. I have seen amateur or hobbyist wine-making recipes that call for a small number of fruits from west coast Berberi species mixed with grapes or with apples.  Berberis pumila, Berberis darwinii & Berberis sonnei are supposedly good added to wine recipes — not all species would be equally suitable — consult winemaking hobbyists who’ll know the specifics. Some few Berberis sp taste so much worse than average they are never listed as edible at all (I would assume these have more of the caustic alkaloids that in mahonia has killed cattle), plus two or three of our native varieties are endangered so cannot be legally harvested (in California). If someone does try to eat theirs, a standard recommendation is not to harvest barberries or mahonias until after the first hard freeze in autumn. The first freeze supposedly reduces the hideous tartness & makes them a bit more appetizing mixed with other fruits for jams or marmelaides or for wine or fruit drinks, but still not marvelous if eaten raw. This is also why in gardens the birds rarely touch them until well into winter — a time when there are few better options & the alkaloids have lost their causticness, broken down by freezing & thawing a few times. -paghat the ratgirl — "Flowers are commonly badly designed, inartistic in color, & ill-smelling." -Ambrose Bierce Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.angelfire.com/grrl/paghat/gardenhome.html#top

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A bartrap plant might be appropriate for your neighbor.

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Barberry fruit is edible and has a tart lemon flavor that is perfect in jams and jellies.  It is lively enough to stand alone or be mixed with other fruits. — Melana Edible Wild Kitchen www.ediblewild.com — I inherited with the house several barberries, the red variety & the gold variety. The gold ones though just as old as the red have always remained small. The red however is a large vigorous shrub. Here’s my barberry page: http://www.angelfire.com/grrl/paghat/barberry.html#top

  What barberry would have over this option is if you didn’t want to tend to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the hedge ever, & no interest in harvesting berries, then barberry can be neglected & still look pleasant, whereas various bramble berries are ornamental only if taken care of & could otherwise get noxious. -paghat the ratgirl

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve just read an article that says Canada will be allowing the planting of barberry shrubs again, after a 40-year ban.  (The Cdn Agriculture Dept prohibited the movement of the barberry shrub into and within Canada in the mid-60s because it acted as an alternate host for black stem rust of wheat.) Apparently, we’ll be able to buy Japanese barberry this spring.  I’d love to plant something in a certain area of my yard, to discourage trespassers.  I’m in zone 4b and the area gets full sun from about 11am to 6pm.  The soil is sandy, but I amend any areas where I’m planting.  Any particular recommendations or suggestions? thanks in advance –scarlett– I inherited with the house several barberries, the red variety & the gold variety. The gold ones though just as old as the red have always remained small. The red however is a large vigorous shrub. Here’s my barberry page: http://www.angelfire.com/grrl/paghat/barberry.html#top A random thought, if it’s the fringe of your property & you just want a barrier, why not some not TOO aggressive EDIBLE berry? There are "blackberry-raspberry" hibrids on the market that get big enough to still be a barrier in winter, but not run-away-insane like big English blackberry briars. Even just a "rainbow hedge" of various raspberries — black raspberries, red raspberries, purple, & yellow — that would be so colorful when fruiting. Some blackberry varities grow as "canes" almost like upright trunks, & if properly pruned seasonally form lovely tidy bushes rather than those "left for wild" snakeu masses. In areas with really cold winters blackberries might not thrive, but raspberries do well. The "full sun" area you describe would maximize harvests, & some unusual cultivar or hybrid could be really thrilling as it’d be something edible you’d never find in the supermarkets in or out of season. What barberry would have over this option is if you didn’t want to tend to the hedge ever, & no interest in harvesting berries, then barberry can be neglected & still look pleasant, whereas various bramble berries are ornamental only if taken care of & could otherwise get noxious. -paghat the ratgirl —

Thanks, Paghat.  This is just the kind of info I was looking for.  I already have some wild raspberry canes at the back of the yard which the deer and birds seem to enjoy.  I don’t want to plant them too close to the front yard, as they might prove too tempting for local bears. The area where I’d like to plant the barberry is in the front yard, which faces a lake.  A particular neighbour insists on my front yard as a shortcut… despite polite offers of the use of the backyard (which would only require a detour of a few metres).  In doing so, he’s able to peer straight into my living and diningrooms (which he does).  Hence, my desire to plant something to persuade him to change his course.  Your barberry page was very helpful… as are many of the other pages on your site.  Thanks again –scarlett–

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Question:

(2) when you do rack or pour the wine, do it gently to avoid air entrainment.  By air entrainment, I mean pouring wine so that is splashes; when racking you avoid this by simply keeping the outlet of the tube below the surface of the wine in the vessel you’re filling, rather than letting the wine cascade into the body of the vessel.  Equally, I’d avoid running the wine down the side of the vessel, because although it doesn’t splash as such, it fans out and you have a vastly increased surface area as you’re doing this.

Splashing the wine – especially a red – right at the first racking at the end of fermentation is actually a good thing.  Not only does it help degas the CO2 dissolved in the wine, but also the traces of H2S that are formed during any normal fermentation. Tom S

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My primary fermenter is solid white and I can’t see into it to make note of the fermentation process that I see people discussing.   Can I periodically lift the lid and take a peak to see how things are progressing (i.e., foaming & bubbling)?

You’ve got no choice!  However, if the place where you’ve got the primary located is quiet you can probably hear it fizzing gently without looking. With primary fermentation you’ve got CO2 being given off, and this will tend to displace air that you may let in whilst taking a look.  There is a small risk of airborne contamination, and if you cop a dose then the results can be terminal for the wine.  But don’t be *overly* concerned – many tried and tested wine making recipes involving daily stirring of the must for two or three weeks, and still don’t give rise to frequent problems. One solution is to fit an airlock to the primary, mainly to provide a visual signal of what’s going on inside the container.  Strictly speaking it’s not treally needed to protect the wine because the vigorous fermentation should do so, but it certainly won’t do any harm.  If you do this, you may find that the vigorous ferment bubbles the airlock dry, so keep an eye on it to make sure this doesn’t happen. Also, how concerned should one be with exposing the wine to air during racking?  I assume there will be some exposure (especially going from the primary to carboy) but the goal should be to do it quickly, getting the wine sealed back up as fast as possible.   I’m curious if I’m being overly paranoid with keeping the wine sealed and air free at all times.  I don’t see how one can keep all the air out during testing, racking, monitoring, etc…

It is impossible to avoid exposing wine to air in these processes, but the two things perhaps to concentrate on are (1) only handle the wine when you have to, and don’t keep measuring SG every two days for the sake of it, and (2) when you do rack or pour the wine, do it gently to avoid air entrainment.  By air entrainment, I mean pouring wine so that is splashes; when racking you avoid this by simply keeping the outlet of the tube below the surface of the wine in the vessel you’re filling, rather than letting the wine cascade into the body of the vessel.  Equally, I’d avoid running the wine down the side of the vessel, because although it doesn’t splash as such, it fans out and you have a vastly increased surface area as you’re doing this. In some instances you can’t avoid exposing the wine to air – don’t worry about it, just keep in mind that your objective is to minimise air contact Led

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I recently purchased my first wine kit and equipment and have a couple of really simple questions: My primary fermenter is solid white and I can’t see into it to make note of the fermentation process that I see people discussing.   Can I periodically lift the lid and take a peak to see how things are progressing (i.e., foaming & bubbling)?   I assume I’ll have to do this, but given the many warnings about following proper procedures I thought I would ask. Also, how concerned should one be with exposing the wine to air during racking?  I assume there will be some exposure (especially going from the primary to carboy) but the goal should be to do it quickly, getting the wine sealed back up as fast as possible.   I’m curious if I’m being overly paranoid with keeping the wine sealed and air free at all times.  I don’t see how one can keep all the air out during testing, racking, monitoring, etc… Thanks in advance… Steve

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Question:

Hi Cliff;  Yes cherries make great wine.  The Winemaker’s Handbook has 2 recipes uaing cherries.  Check out our web site under Wine Making Beginner and the Library for the handbook.  The handbook and equipment should also be available at your local brew shop Cheers Brewman www.floridahomebrewers.com

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As a side note, there is a shop selling concentrated cherry juice as a health aid.  It is suppose to give arthritic relief, just imagine with a little alcohol the relief one would get…<BG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Cliff;  Yes cherries make great wine.  The Winemaker’s Handbook has 2 recipes uaing cherries.  Check out our web site under Wine Making Beginner and the Library for the handbook.  The handbook and equipment should also be available at your local brew shop Cheers Brewman www.floridahomebrewers.com

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Question:

I’m planning on making sloe wine.  The recipes I’ve seen say to stone the fruit .

I have made Sloe wine in the past and I have never removed the stones from the Sloes I have used. Fortunately my Sloe Wine has always been alright (So Far *Touch Wood*).. Best Wishes. Gaz. — Want *UNCENSORED* Usenet? www.newzpig.com

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I’m planning on making sloe wine.  The recipes I’ve seen say to stone the fruit but there are millions of them and I can’t be arsed, to be frank. Does it make any difference to the wine if I leave the stones in while it is fermenting on the pulp?  If I do have to stone them do you have any tips on how to do this without making a huge mess and it taking lots of effort?

My recipe for sloe wine says not to stone the fruit (saying that it also says to leave a sloe/water mixture to form a crust of mould for as many months as you can!). Certainly whenever I’ve made slow vodka or gin I’ve never stoned them BTW are there still sloes about in the UK at this time of year? — mvn

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I’m planning on making sloe wine.  The recipes I’ve seen say to stone the fruit but there are millions of them and I can’t be arsed, to be frank. Does it make any difference to the wine if I leave the stones in while it is fermenting on the pulp?  If I do have to stone them do you have any tips on how to do this without making a huge mess and it taking lots of effort?

I have no experience or knowledge of sloes, but whenever I’ve frozen other fruit for wine making, it has thawed in a very soft and mushy condition. I suggest freezing the sloes, then letting them thaw in a large plastic pail. Using a stout bit of wood with the business end double wrapped in thick plastic bags, pound the mushy fruit, which should separate the pulp from the stones. Add a substantial bit of water and stir briskly. If you pour carefully into your primary vat while the solution is still agitated, I imagine that the pulp and water would pour off while the stones sink to the bottom. Maybe repeat the water-and-stir step to get more pulp off the stones. (I never thought that I’d be the one to stone the first sloe.) Paul

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I’m planning on making sloe wine.  The recipes I’ve seen say to stone the fruit but there are millions of them and I can’t be arsed, to be frank. Does it make any difference to the wine if I leave the stones in while it is fermenting on the pulp?  If I do have to stone them do you have any tips on how to do this without making a huge mess and it taking lots of effort? Chris

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Question:

Ben, go to http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/request.asp and scroll down to the recipe for "Grape Wine (Generic)." Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello All, My name is Ben Brownlee.  I am from Ontario, Canada and am a home wine maker now for about 3 years.  I am however experienced in "kit" wine making (have made about a dozen or so), so I know the basics about using a hydrometer, have equipment, etc.  I have a sister-in-law that recently moved into a new house were the previous owner has grape vines growing there and has used the grapes for wine.  I am not sure of the variety of the grapes but would love to give them a try for some wine.  Could anyone that has a pleasant recipe for wine using grapes, please email it to me for use in making wine out of these grapes (they are red in colour).  My wife and I do not like very dry wines, normally we drink white Z with a sweetness of about 3.  If you could help me that would be greatly appreciated. thank-you, Ben

My rule of thumb for grapes is:  If the grapes taste good then you will probably like them as wine.  I like the taste of Chardonnay grapes and concords so I like them as wine.  Actually I could just as well drink the juice unfermented.  I think after a while you can taste the grapes unfermented and then have a very good feel for how they will taste as a wine.   As far as recipes go.  It will vary depending on the sugar content of the grapes you are using as well as their acid content.  

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Hello All, My name is Ben Brownlee.  I am from Ontario, Canada and am a home wine maker now for about 3 years.  I am however experienced in "kit" wine making (have made about a dozen or so), so I know the basics about using a hydrometer, have equipment, etc.  I have a sister-in-law that recently moved into a new house were the previous owner has grape vines growing there and has used the grapes for wine.  I am not sure of the variety of the grapes but would love to give them a try for some wine.  Could anyone that has a pleasant recipe for wine using grapes, please email it to me for use in making wine out of these grapes (they are red in colour).  My wife and I do not like very dry wines, normally we drink white Z with a sweetness of about 3.  If you could help me that would be greatly appreciated. thank-you, Ben

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